dario

Хазарската теория учудващо доста хора се намират още да я подкрепят, но няма никакви доказателства генетично и може съвсем уверено да се каже, че няма такова нещо. Иначе за Анатолийският и по-конкретно Южно-Италийски профил у Евреите, има шанс също да излиза преекспониран в калкулаторите (включително и в комерсиалните), поради самият Левантийски компонент, който е част от него. Според други мнения, този Анатолийски компонент, или поне някаква част от него, е била налична у древните Евреи във връзка с асимилация на Филистимяни, които като част от Морските народи трябва да са били предимно Анатолийци. Аз доколкото съм си играл през древни калкулатори, упорито тези 60-70% илизат като Tepecik, тоест Анатолийското не е случайно. От друга страна, Евреите, които остават в Близкия изток имат едва 7-8% от този компонент, с известа вариативност, като Йеменските Евреи имат учудващо 0% Таа, мисля, че Анатолийско/Италианското е сигурна работа (във връзка с асимилирано италийско население, не за филистимците). Да не говорим и за Самаряните, които са живели 2500 години сред Евреите и изобщо в Близкия изток, имат само 5% Tepecik, а генетично профилът им е може би най-близкото нещо до Bronze Age Levant от днешните народи.

Интересен факт от популационната генетика, за който рядко се говори и ми се струва, че заслужава доста внимание, е т.нар. East Mediterranean shift - прилив на хора от Анатолия и Близкия Изток, който започва някъде през Античността и афектира Южна Европа, като най-ударно Италия, Сицилия, Гърция + островите й, както и Балканите. Най-вече започна да се говори по въпроса, след Moots et al. изследването, когато стана ясно, че Италия през ранно-имперския период претърпява огромна етническа промяна и стария Iron Age Italy профил привидно изчезва за сметка на нов генетичен профил на население от Западна Анатолия (макар че по-късно ще видим, че все пак старият профил е оцелял в известен мащаб). Остава въпросителна как такива огромни маси от хора приемат латинския език и изоставят гръцкия. Малко по-надолу ще добавя едно предположение. Аналогични процеси се наблюдават и в Гръцкия свят, където стария Микенски/Емпурис профил, който оцелява и през гръцките Тъмните векове, та чак до Класическия период, започва около Елинистическата епоха да изчезва за сметка на същия Анатолийски профил. Тук е добре да се вметне, че генетичния профил на гърците от Magna Graecia (гръцката колонизация), е точно стария Микенски/Емпурис профил - така че, Анатолийското етническо влияние няма общо с гръцката колонизация. На Балканите се повтаря същия модел след включването им в Римската империя - старите Iron Age профили тук не изчезват, но се редуцират наполовина от новия Анатолийски профил. Какви са тези древни анатолийци все пак? Ами ужасно приличат в генетично отношение на днешните гърци от Кипър, както и островитяните гърци от Додеканезите, като донякъде има близост и с днешните критяни и маниотите от континентална Гърция, докато останалата част от Гърция е доста отместена генетично на север от множеството славянски и албански заселвания по земите им. Генетичният профил определящ древните анатолийци включва компоненти като западно-средиземноморския Barcin елемент (около 20%); източно-средиземноморския и източно-анатолийски древен елемент Tepecik (около 30-40%); към 10% левантийски примес; 10% Ямна; и 20% Кавказки планинци. Така че по всичко личи, че анатолийските преселници са били от територията на цяла Анатолия, а не само от развитите гръцки полиси от Западното крайбрежие. Тук трябва да се направо уточнение, че има и големи вариативности в този Анатолийски профил, поради разнородното население, което е включвал, но това са усреднени стойности. Някои проби показват и доста по-силен левантийски елемент, например. Освен анатолийци, сред преселниците от Римския период има и чисти левантийци, макар и не чак толкова важни, колкото анатолийците, но все пак е добре да се отбележат. Още по-малко са Северно-Африканските профили, които донякъде може и да са свързани със старите финикийски колонии. Има проби, които са хибриди между Северна Африка, Левант и Западното Средиземноморие, което вече трябва да са финикийци. Въпреки, че наричам това Анатолийско население гърци, все пак, ако трябва да сме съвсем честни, това не са етнически същите гърци от гръцкия Iron Age, това са нови елинизирани човешки маси, нови гърци в основата си. Все пак, в тях се влива и гръцкия Iron Age профил, но в много по-малка степен, и като цяло изчисление е много трудно да се направи. Изобщо древните гърци не са никак еднородни и притегателната сила на езика и културата им, който е повлиял на различни народи в миналото да се елинизират, са били мащаби, които едва ли могат да бъдат оценени напълно в днешно време. От друга страна, същото може да се каже и за Рим - множество народи са повлияни от идеята да бъдеш римлянин и с желание се романизират без да им бъде налагано насила, поради престижа и силата на Империята. Мисля, че може би това е причината Анатолийските гърци преселени в Италия да са приели латинския език и новата римска идентичност. Също и забавният и добре познат културен феномен Римляните да копират гръцката култура, може да се окаже още по-забавен - довчерашните гърци приели римската идентичност сами да са прехвърляли гръцката си култура в новата си римска реалност със същия успех, с който същите тези довчерашни гърци по-преди това да са били карийци, лидийци, лувийци, фригийци, витини, ликийци и т.н. Изначалните причини за този т.нар. East Mediterranean shift, вероятно започват най-вече с гръцката колонизация на Анатолийския литорал. Тук до времето на Елинистическата епоха трябва да са текли тромави процеси на елинизация на местното анатолийско население, но и етническо "анатолизиране" на самите гърци. Върхов момент в този процес трябва да са били походите на Александър на Изток. Включвайки Анатолия в своите владения, започва ударно процес по елинизиране (вече с универсално койне) на мозайката от племена, живяла в древна Анатолия. С какъв успех и колко пълна е била тази Елинизация аз лично не мога да кажа, но вероятно трябва да е вървяла доста неравномерно, поради оцеляването на някои антични племена и в периода след Христа, както и от оцеляването на арменския народи и език, а арменците в древността са били пръснати из голяма част от Анатолия, даже и в Киликия/Сирия. Както знаем, Анатолия в последствие е завладяна от късната Римска република. Тук в големите градски центрове може да се очаква и романизация. След това виждаме включването на големи маси хора в преселническите политики на римската власт. Виждаме тези хора през първите 200 години от Имперския период да заливат Италия. В известен смисъл това е типичният римлянин от този период. Етническата промяна трябва да е станала на доста бързи темпове, съдейки по наличната информация. Все пак, това са данните от изследваните проби от Рим. Какво население е живеело по селата ние не знаем добре, но там трябва да се е съхранил частично стария Italy Iron Age профил, като пак трябва да се наблегне на "частично". За да имаме днешната генетична картина в Южна Италия, може да сме сигурни, че анатолийците навлизат из цялата страна. *** След 3-ти век сл.Хр. в Римската империя започват да се инфилтрират нови етнически елементи и постепенно започва да се изменя генетичната картина по римските земи. Идват и си отиват нови народи, други завинаги остават. На Балканите Славянските маси тераформират и не оставят неафектиран сантиметър, като дори днешните Албанци, Гърци и Румънци имат доволен славянски примес. В Италия Германски племена имат силно влияние на Север, но югът остава и до днес предимно старото Римско население от Имперския период с примеси от старото Italy Iron Age население. Анатолия за жалост е изгубена завинаги след турските завоевания и е силно изменена генетично. Старите гърци от Западна Анатолия са преселени след Младотурската революция, както и множество Понтийски и Кападокийски гърци завинаги напускат старата си родина. При всички положения, старият Анатолийски профил не изчезва, а продължава да бъде важен етно-образуващ фактор в някои страни. Днешните Италианци от юга продължават да са 70-80% наследници на това население, както и поне 35-50% в централните части, докато на север 7-14% и куриозно, 0% в гранични зони в Алпите и Венето. В континентална Гърция с големи разлики от област до област има до към 25-45% влияние. При нас като съвременни Българи прицентите са 24 - т.е. 1/4 от автозомните ни примеси, което е повече от тракийското ни влияние. И все пак, това антично гръко-римско наследство никога не е било признато като пълноправен народо-образуващ елемент при нас. От друга страна, в нашия случай вероятно нещата не са и толкова прости като да кажем, че това е чистата контрибуция на античното гръко-римско население, което славяните са асимилирали. Тук вероятно силно влияние са оказали 200-те години Византийско владичество, за което намекна Южняк в друга тема относно новото генетично изследване обхващащо 2500 години история по нашите земи. Т.е. тук вече може да се мисли за Средновековно гръцко влияние. Колкото и да говорим, че няма "византийски етнос", през Средновековието вече има профил, който наподобява днешния гръцки профил (това от изтекла информация от непубликувано гръцко изследване). Тук трябва да се има предвид и систематичното заселване на Арменци и Сирийци (предимно павликяни и тондракити) в Тракия, чието генетично влияние вклинено в гръко-римския профил едва ли лесно може да се отдели. Така че, това което виждаме като 24% Анатолийски примес в днешното ни население по-скоро е акумулация от няколко фактора. Ще са нужни проби от няколко различни исторически периода, за да разберем каква порция от този елемент е унаследена от власи, кое от гърци, кое от арменци. И сигурно пак няма да е много ясна сметката. Прочие, интересен факт е, че европейските евреи ашкенази, сефарадими, романиоти (и почетно италиоти) са 50 до 70% с генетична контрибуция от същото това Анатолийско население и едва 10 до 25% Левантийско наследство, което показва, че е имало голям прилив на конвърти при първоначалното заселване на евреите в Европа и че това е станало някъде в Южна Италия по всяка вероятност. И също така, че е предимно влияние по женска линия. Би ми било интересно хора с по-големи исторически познания да споделят, спрямо историческите сведения, до каква степен може да е отразено това огромно преселение на хора от Анатолия към римските провинции. Защо например няма огромно преселение на хора от Галия с многомилионното си романизирано население? 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Italy_Roman_Empire_Civitanova_Marche_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR836,0.119514,0.158423,-0.007542,-0.037791,0.011387,-0.01757,-0.005875,-0.009692,-0.007567,0.024966,0,-0.004496,-0.014717,-0.002202,-0.014386,-0.001591,-0.003781,-0.007728,0.013073,-0.004752,-0.004866,0.011252,-0.000493,-0.00482,-0.002874 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR39,0.111547,0.142174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR40,0.105855,0.151314,-0.023004,-0.060078,0.001539,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004846,-0.012067,0.027882,0.007307,0.003447,-0.010555,0.000275,-0.017236,-0.000796,0.000261,-0.00076,-0.002388,-0.01113,-0.004742,0.000371,-0.013188,0.004338,-0.000359 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Italy_Roman_Empire_Mazzano_Romano_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR1544,0.111547,0.140143,-0.012445,-0.039406,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.003995,-0.001385,0.005931,0.012939,0.010555,-0.002398,-0.006392,-0.001101,-0.001493,-0.003845,0.002999,0.0019,0.004022,-0.005002,0.004243,0.007296,-0.001602,-0.006507,-0.001676 Italy_Roman_Empire_Monterotondo_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR1548,0.112685,0.146236,-0.012822,-0.044574,-0.004616,-0.021196,0.004935,0.000231,-0.005113,0.012392,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.000892,-0.003303,-0.006515,0.006364,-0.000261,0.007475,0.002137,-0.00988,-0.013726,0.004822,0.008627,0.006025,-0.005149 Italy_Roman_Empire_Monterotondo_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR1549,0.108132,0.146236,-0.000377,-0.026486,0.017234,-0.01506,0.005405,-0.006461,0.010226,0.006378,0.003085,-0.009891,0.002379,-0.001514,0.004072,0.003713,-0.00326,0.004561,0.003394,0.003001,-0.000499,0.010758,-0.000863,0.007109,0.005269 Italy_Roman_Empire_Palestrina_Antina_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR436,0.119514,0.145221,-0.016216,-0.044897,0.00954,-0.015897,-0.00376,-0.008307,0.001841,0.014214,0.003573,0.005695,-0.004162,-0.011285,-0.011536,0.00716,0.02021,0,0.00352,0.001626,-0.000873,0.010881,0.001109,0.003615,-0.000479 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR47,0.106994,0.148267,-0.006788,-0.046189,0.008617,-0.020359,-0.001175,-0.009692,0.005318,0.023326,0.002273,0.009142,-0.004757,-0.010046,-0.002036,0.002121,0.007562,-0.000633,-0.003771,0.002751,-0.005865,0.002349,0.005546,-0.005181,-0.000958 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR49,0.110408,0.156392,-0.00528,-0.040052,0.016618,-0.020917,0.00376,-0.003461,-0.00225,0.017677,0.004384,0.006594,-0.01219,0.002477,-0.010315,0.002387,0.004042,-0.002154,0.00352,-0.004502,0.002496,-0.000124,0.000739,-0.005904,0.003233 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR50,0.100164,0.150298,-0.024136,-0.049742,0.008309,-0.009203,0.00141,-0.000692,-0.005113,0.014214,0.000974,0.002997,0.00223,0.005092,-0.003257,-0.012198,-0.009648,0.007601,0.006159,-0.008379,0,0.007419,0.001972,0.000602,0.001557 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR51,0.112685,0.148267,-0.02225,-0.048127,0.014464,-0.029284,0.000235,-0.011999,0.003272,0.024237,0.002273,0.003597,-0.007284,-0.001789,-0.00475,-0.007558,-0.011474,0.004054,0.011313,-0.003877,0.001747,0.006554,0.003574,0.005784,-0.003952 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR69,0.120652,0.146236,-0.016593,-0.05168,0.004308,-0.019522,-0.0047,-0.007846,-0.021884,0.027882,0.000325,0.01079,-0.014271,-0.003853,-0.020087,0.007558,0.034161,0.003421,0.010559,0.006003,-0.008111,0.001855,-0.005916,-0.005422,-0.007185 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR73,0.088782,0.153345,-0.028661,-0.066215,0.000308,-0.01757,-0.005875,-0.005769,0.006749,0.025695,0.002436,-0.001349,0.0055,-0.00812,-0.002443,0.013657,0.014733,-0.003927,-0.002011,0.006628,-0.008984,-0.001607,-0.003697,0.003374,0.005987 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR113,0.122929,0.162485,-0.007542,-0.041021,0.018465,-0.017291,-0.00846,-0.008077,0.015339,0.030433,-0.000325,0.004496,-0.008771,-0.007294,-0.005157,-0.016176,-0.011474,-0.005701,0.007793,-0.017133,0.00025,-0.002102,0.001479,-0.011206,-0.002036 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR114,0.112685,0.146236,-0.018102,-0.051357,0.007078,-0.010319,-0.005405,-0.010384,0.000614,0.008565,-0.00341,0.01094,-0.003865,0.001376,-0.006107,-0.013789,-0.009648,0.005194,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.004367,0.006677,0.006532,0.003976,-0.000239 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR115,0.105855,0.145221,-0.02225,-0.065892,-0.001846,-0.01255,0.00188,0.002538,-0.00225,0.019317,0.002598,0.006294,-0.005054,0.001927,-0.011401,-0.001724,0.009127,-0.000253,0.003645,-0.011631,-0.007112,0.004328,-0.003821,0.004699,-0.003952 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(East_Med_Profile):RMPR131,0.111547,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.046512,0.006155,-0.004462,-0.008225,-0.004154,0.007567,0.018406,0.001299,0.001798,-0.002527,-0.006055,-0.005293,0.002121,0.007171,0.004307,0.002891,-0.010755,0.000374,0.008656,-0.009983,-0.003615,0.001437 Italy_Roman_Empire_Casale_del_Dolce_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR126,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012 Italy_Roman_Empire_Casale_del_Dolce_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR128,0.118376,0.150298,-0.033187,-0.052326,-0.006463,-0.022311,0.001175,-0.011538,-0.018612,0.018953,0.005034,0.006294,-0.007433,0.014588,-0.019137,-0.012994,-0.007171,0.004561,0.003897,-0.013256,-0.003244,0.000618,0.005423,-0.000361,-0.008622 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR41,0.095611,0.139128,-0.036204,-0.076551,0.004924,-0.026216,-0.00282,-0.005769,0.002863,0.023508,0.003248,-0.001199,0.001635,0.004404,-0.006379,0.000796,0.002347,-0.003294,-0.001634,-0.005503,-0.005989,0.000866,0.00037,-0.001205,0.003952 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR43,0.111547,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.067184,0.003693,-0.025379,0.00423,-0.006,-0.007976,0.029704,0.003248,0.011839,-0.014717,0.006881,-0.017101,-0.000663,0.017341,0.003167,0.005028,-0.000625,-0.010981,0.010881,-0.003204,0.010001,-0.00012 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR44,0.117238,0.167562,-0.028284,-0.070737,0.004616,-0.019522,0.001175,-0.006692,-0.003886,0.034807,0.006333,0.008243,-0.013379,0.001651,-0.009229,-0.004508,0.017211,-0.00038,-0.003268,-0.007003,-0.000873,0.000618,0.001479,0.008314,0.001437 Italy_Roman_Empire_Isola_Sacra_(Levantine_Profile):RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916 Italy_Roman_Empire_Mazzano_Romano_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR1545,0.105855,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR66,0.111547,0.158423,-0.033187,-0.06783,0.002154,-0.026216,0.00094,-0.002538,-0.013703,0.025331,0.012991,-0.004196,-0.001041,0.00523,-0.022937,-0.014983,-0.005867,0.000507,0.004902,-0.015257,-0.005241,0.00272,-0.003451,0.00253,0.000958 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR75,0.099026,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR76,0.095611,0.142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Anatolian_Profile):RMPR78,0.113823,0.157407,-0.031301,-0.079458,0.002154,-0.03012,-0.000705,-0.007846,-0.007772,0.019317,0.002436,0.005095,-0.009366,0.008395,-0.013436,-0.017369,-0.002217,0.000253,0.010936,-0.006503,-0.007237,-0.000989,-0.006286,-0.000482,0.005389 Italy_Roman_Empire_Rome_(Levantine_Profile):RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874 БАЛКАНИТЕ и АНАТОЛИЯ: Хърватия: Croatia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Novo_Selo-Bunje_(East_Med_Profile),0.111547,0.148267,0.001886,-0.033269,0.022773,-0.012829,0.00235,-0.004846,0.003272,0.018224,-0.000812,0.006444,-0.010406,0.004542,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.00326,-0.007095,-0.004399,0.001376,-0.012104,-0.000866,0.003451,0.001687,0.001796 Croatia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Trogir_(Central_Med_Profile),0.11780675,0.14750575,0.004808,-0.02285225,0.021927,-0.0138745,-0.00064625,0.00115375,0.0017895,0.01444225,-0.00012175,0.00539525,-0.00951425,-0.002649,-0.00760025,0.01186675,0.0161675,0.00069675,0.0005345,-0.00087525,-0.002277,0.00009275,-0.0020335,0.001416,0.00026925 Croatia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Trogir_(East_Med_Profile),0.108132,0.140143,0.004903,-0.044897,0.020311,-0.007251,0.00282,0.005538,-0.001432,0.027518,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.014271,-0.006744,-0.009908,0.012994,0.023991,-0.008488,0.004525,-0.00988,-0.007612,0.005688,0.003697,-0.003012,-0.001676 Byzantine)_Ravna_Slog_(East_Med_Profile),0.111547,0.147252,0.007542,-0.052649,0.025543,-0.019522,-0.00141,-0.002769,0.014521,0.026424,0.013641,-0.005695,-0.005054,-0.021882,-0.015608,0.013524,0.022035,0.003801,-0.014204,0.00025,-0.016221,-0.001855,-0.009613,0.005663,0.005389 Сърбия: Serbia_Late_Antiquity_(Roman_Empire-Byzantine)_Viminacium_Pecine_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.106994,0.144205,-0.033564,-0.064923,-0.001539,-0.022311,0.0094,-0.003461,0.013294,0.021504,0.022572,0.002548,-0.009217,0.014863,-0.012622,-0.013259,0.013299,-0.012035,0.01081,-0.004252,0.002121,-0.009521,0.01023,-0.003133,-0.003473 Serbia_Roman_Empire_Naissus_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.104717,0.150298,-0.029793,-0.060724,-0.002154,-0.019522,-0.00094,-0.011999,0.002863,0.020957,0.002273,-0.000599,0.007433,0.000275,-0.013843,-0.002917,0.011083,0.005954,0.013952,-0.000875,-0.012728,0.00507,-0.003944,-0.008435,0.000958 Serbia_Roman_Empire_Viminacium_Pecine_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.097888,0.156392,-0.048271,-0.058786,-0.004308,-0.022311,0.011281,-0.000231,-0.01493,0.020046,0.006171,0.008992,-0.025272,0.001239,-0.013708,-0.019093,-0.006389,0.001014,0.001131,-0.01063,-0.004991,0.005193,0.006655,0.002651,-0.005868 Serbia_Roman_Empire_Viminacium_Pirivoj_(Anatolia_BA_Profile),0.114961,0.169593,-0.050157,-0.073644,-0.009232,-0.022311,0.013866,-0.01223,-0.007567,0.019864,0.002111,0.014987,-0.004757,0.001101,-0.02253,-0.008884,0.022426,-0.007855,-0.006536,-0.005628,0.010606,0.00136,-0.006162,0.008194,-0.007784 Serbia_Roman_Empire_Viminacium_Pirivoj_(Levantine_Profile),0.085367,0.146236,-0.046009,-0.073644,-0.016311,-0.02761,0.00235,-0.000231,-0.006136,0.01385,-0.001786,0.000749,0.00892,0.004129,-0.005157,-0.009546,-0.010952,-0.00228,0.01169,-0.008004,-0.004991,0.003462,-0.002095,0.000723,-0.000718 Serbia_Roman_Empire_Viminacium_Vise_Grobalja_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.113823,0.153345,-0.027907,-0.066215,-0.007078,-0.027889,0.003055,-0.00923,-0.016157,0.022597,-0.00406,0.009741,-0.006392,0.009083,-0.017915,-0.016309,0.001043,0.002407,0.005656,-0.006878,0.003743,-0.002473,-0.001602,-0.003374,0.000958 Serbia_Roman_Empire-Late_Antiquity_Viminacium_Pirivoj_(Central_Anatolian_Greek_Profile),0.101303,0.140143,-0.044877,-0.052972,-0.003385,-0.027052,0.00282,-0.000923,-0.024338,0.009841,0.001624,0.004196,-0.011744,0.005367,-0.02158,-0.011933,-0.000782,-0.002914,0.000628,-0.005378,-0.000749,-0.003833,-0.002465,-0.006627,-0.009101 Serbia_Roman_Empire-Late_Antiquity_Viminacium_Rit_(Anatolia_BA_Profile),0.10927,0.156392,-0.026021,-0.058786,0.014772,-0.017291,0.004465,-0.001385,-0.008999,0.03426,-0.003735,0.003747,-0.016799,0.004954,-0.025108,0.00411,0.021774,0.004434,0.008422,-0.007253,-0.007612,0.005441,-0.004807,0.000602,-0.004431 Serbia_Roman_Empire-Late_Antiquity_Viminacium_Rit_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.117807,0.1558835,-0.0339405,-0.0731595,0.0006155,-0.0252395,-0.00987,-0.007269,-0.001227,0.026971,0.002111,-0.001948,-0.0053515,0.0038535,-0.0104505,-0.00358,0.011865,0.004434,0.0042735,-0.0029385,-0.0016845,0.0027825,-0.003574,-0.0046995,0.0005985 Serbia_Roman_Empire-Late_Antiquity_Viminacium_Vise_Grobalja_(Central_Anatolian_Greek_Profile),0.108701,0.1457285,-0.039032,-0.0557175,-0.0138485,-0.017849,0.0041125,-0.0044995,-0.012169,0.0144875,0.0006495,0.0051705,-0.007879,-0.00289,0.0026465,0.0003315,0.0039115,0.0060175,0.003897,0.0007505,0.0059895,0.0113145,0.001787,-0.001928,-0.005149 Serbia_Roman_Empire-Late_Antiquity_Viminacium_Vise_Grobalja_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.111547,0.160454,-0.03017,-0.069445,0.003077,-0.02259,-0.0094,0.006,-0.008999,0.021504,-0.010555,0.001349,-0.00773,0.003441,-0.011129,0.004773,0.002217,-0.000507,0.001508,-0.001876,-0.014974,0.007172,0.002588,-0.007471,-0.003473 Анатолия: Anatolia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Nicaea_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.1126848,0.1549698,-0.0334886,-0.0680884,0.0037544,-0.026885,0.000705,-0.0085842,-0.005522,0.0216494,0.0031186,0.0028776,-0.0087116,0.0036056,-0.0169922,-0.0134712,-0.001695,0.0020272,0.0061842,-0.0070282,-0.0064886,0.0069738,-0.0020458,-0.0001686,-0.0024908 Anatolia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Samantas_(East_Med_Profile),0.105571,0.15055225,-0.02545575,-0.05628275,0.0043085,-0.02217175,-0.0017625,-0.00490375,-0.00132925,0.01995475,0.00543975,0.0020605,-0.00393925,0.00289025,-0.01323275,-0.0057345,0.006943,0.00101375,0.004148,-0.00647175,-0.00430475,-0.00068025,-0.00064725,-0.00247,-0.0049995 Anatolia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Samantas_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.10244067,0.15097533,-0.040100667,-0.070629333,0.001026,-0.027796333,-0.00282,-0.008692,-0.0044313333,0.019864,0.002165,0.002148,-0.006739,0.0023856667,-0.013934,0.010563,0.017732333,-0.00080266667,0.005866,-0.0048356667,-0.0033273333,-0.0022256667,-0.00020566667,-0.0064666667,-0.0014373333 Anatolia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Zeytinliada_(Balkan/Western_Anatolian_Greek_Profile),0.108132,0.142682,-0.0015085,-0.030685,0.016311,-0.01004,0.006815,-0.000577,-0.0064425,0.0088385,0.004953,0.0016485,-0.0018585,0.006124,-0.0082115,-0.009745,-0.01017,0.0007605,0.0056565,-0.0052525,-0.003182,-0.006121,0.0027115,0.0010845,-0.006347 Anatolia_Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Zeytinliada_(East_Med_Profile),0.1149615,0.1436975,-0.014331,-0.0408595,0.0080015,-0.0132475,0.003995,-0.0002305,-0.0087945,0.010296,0.001218,0.001199,-0.0046085,0.0040595,-0.007329,-0.007624,0.0008475,0.009248,0.006159,-0.0075035,0.0010605,-0.0009895,-0.004868,-0.0050605,0.002455 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity_(Roman_Empire-Byzantine)_Nicaea_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.114961,0.142174,-0.031678,-0.064923,-0.004001,-0.027889,0.006815,-0.007846,-0.009817,0.024784,0.006008,-0.001199,-0.009663,0.003991,-0.014929,-0.014452,-0.002217,0.010262,-0.00264,-0.011756,-0.003494,-0.000247,-0.001479,-0.008435,0.006347 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity_Bogazkoy_(Mesopotamian/Armenian_Highland_Profile),0.102441,0.135065,-0.056568,-0.068476,-0.020619,-0.0251,-0.00752,-0.011076,-0.025156,0.005832,0.001949,0.005695,0.0055,0.005367,-0.004614,0.004508,0.004694,-0.00228,0.00088,-0.003627,0.002496,0.002597,-0.005053,-0.000361,0.003113 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity_Samsun_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.114961,0.146236,-0.032055,-0.067507,0.00677,-0.021475,0.000235,-0.005307,-0.012067,0.024055,0.004384,0.006444,-0.000595,-0.004679,-0.016151,0.005569,0.013299,0.003041,0.003268,-0.001626,0.002371,-0.001855,-0.002588,0.001928,0.000239 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Nicaea_(Balkan/Western_Anatolian_Greek_Profile),0.119514,0.142174,0.001508,-0.0323,0.020619,-0.02008,0.00329,-0.000462,-0.009613,0.01713,-0.009743,-0.003597,-0.003419,0.002064,-0.012622,-0.00411,0.007953,0.00228,0.007416,-0.009505,-0.011605,-0.000247,-0.002588,0.001566,-0.002754 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Nicaea_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.10927,0.14894433,-0.025141667,-0.063631,0.006155,-0.026122667,-0.0014883333,-0.006769,-0.0041586667,0.025027,0.000054,0.0068436667,-0.0070363333,0.0011926667,-0.019091333,-0.0055246667,0.0013036667,-0.0019426667,0.008422,-0.0045853333,-0.0048663333,0.0014836667,0.00016433333,0.00237,-0.000878 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Nicaea_(Southeast_Anatolian_Profile),0.100164,0.156392,-0.043746,-0.070414,-0.012002,-0.028168,0.00376,-0.000923,-0.001841,0.015308,0.009094,-0.001349,0.000297,0.001789,-0.015336,0.015248,0.016428,0.005701,0.005531,-0.003752,0.000749,0.005812,-0.003451,0.003494,-0.003113 Anatolia_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_(Byzantine)_Zeytinliada_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile),0.097888,0.145221,-0.028284,-0.063308,0.006155,-0.031515,0.00376,-0.007846,-0.009817,0.014943,0.007632,-0.001499,-0.001933,-0.00289,-0.008686,-0.009016,-0.000782,-0.002534,0.003645,-0.007128,0.001123,-0.005317,0.000616,0.001325,0.000958 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Y.kapi_Byz:I14843___J-Z6271___AD_550___Coverage_66.66%,0.100164,0.149283,-0.023759,-0.065892,0.005232,-0.02259,-0.00658,-0.006,0.000818,0.025878,0.005359,0.006594,-0.004311,-0.005367,-0.013979,0.01127,0.024773,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.005878,-0.004991,0.000618,0.002711,0.006989,-0.003233 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I8368___female___AD_600___Coverage_23.03%,0.110408,0.151314,-0.029793,-0.068799,0.004924,-0.024263,-0.000235,-0.00923,-0.001227,0.029704,-0.005846,-0.001948,-0.012636,-0.00055,-0.0095,-0.009812,0.015776,-0.004814,0.004148,-0.009004,-0.009483,0.011005,-0.008134,-0.00494,-0.007065 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I8370___J-Z7661___AD_600___Coverage_47.71%,0.113823,0.160454,-0.03017,-0.069445,0.003385,-0.024263,0.00094,-0.009923,-0.008385,0.016401,0.006008,0.004646,-0.019921,0.008945,-0.018187,-0.027446,-0.01004,0.005068,0.016592,-0.008254,-0.00549,0.012736,0,0.000482,0.001078 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I8371___female___AD_600___Coverage_71.98%,0.104717,0.155376,-0.040729,-0.076228,-0.000308,-0.029284,0.000705,-0.00923,-0.008385,0.014397,0.000974,0.003897,-0.00446,0.00578,-0.014251,-0.015115,-0.007562,0.000507,0.003268,-0.006253,-0.005241,0.000247,-0.005423,-0.000241,-0.005389 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I8373___female___AD_600___Coverage_56.24%,0.111547,0.153345,-0.026776,-0.055879,0.001846,-0.027331,-0.002585,-0.010846,-0.0045,0.030433,0.007145,-0.0003,-0.004311,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.021612,-0.012256,0.001774,0.003142,-0.007128,-0.005241,0.008161,0.001356,-0.000361,0.002395 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Basilica_RomByz_A_brother.I8366:I8367___E-V13___AD_600___Coverage_45.31%,0.122929,0.15436,-0.039975,-0.070091,0.008925,-0.029284,0.0047,-0.003692,-0.005113,0.017312,0.007307,0.008093,-0.00223,0.000963,-0.023208,0.006629,0.005607,0.007601,0.003771,-0.004502,-0.006988,0.00272,0.001972,0.004217,-0.003473 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Balikesir_Byz:I14821___female___AD_800___Coverage_68.65%,0.113823,0.140143,-0.020742,-0.034561,0.00277,-0.010319,0.004465,-0.002538,-0.010431,0.009476,0.002598,0.003297,-0.005946,0.001651,-0.003393,-0.001326,0.008605,0.009248,0.003142,0,0.006239,-0.003339,-0.002095,-0.004458,0.010538 Byzantine_NW_Anatolia:TUR_Marmara_Balikesir_Byz:I14831___female___AD_800___Coverage_70.32%,0.1161,0.147252,-0.00792,-0.047158,0.013233,-0.016176,0.003525,0.002077,-0.007158,0.011116,-0.000162,-0.000899,-0.003271,0.006468,-0.011265,-0.013922,-0.00691,0.009248,0.009176,-0.015007,-0.004118,0.00136,-0.007641,-0.005663,-0.005628

Благодаря за пояснението, снимал съм ги преди 10 години и в съзнанието ми е останал спомен, че бяха тракийски, но явно са всякакви римляни в този случай.

Не знам, ще трябва да пробвам това довечера. Като цяло и сега на 1 дистанция е добър модел, но ще видя как ще се промени. За E-V13, хаплогрупата е почти унищожена и минава през ботълнек към Средния бронз, а демографския й бум трябва да е започнал около 1300 пр.Хр. ако се съди по наличната досега информация. Така че бих предположил, без да знам към кои клонове са тези кримски проби, че са свързани с Карпатската експанзия на E-V13 по време на прехода между Бронза и Желязото.

Сега попгрегледах E-V13 семплите от Крим: Target Distance Anatolia Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG Medieval_Turkic_KAZ_Kipchak Sarmatian Slavic Thracian-Kapitan-Andreevo Ukraine_Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021472__BC_287__Cov_96.35% 0.01551395 • 81.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 18.8 Ukraine_Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021473__BC_400__Cov_77.20% 0.01410985 • 21.6 0.0 1.8 35.0 41.6 0.0 Ukraine_Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021474__BC_400__Cov_77.39% 0.01674993 • 14.2 0.0 8.8 75.4 0.0 1.6 Ukraine_Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021475__BC_400__Cov_74.05% 0.01610641 • 36.2 0.4 1.4 4.8 0.0 57.2 Ukraine_Crimea_Chersonesus_IA:CGG021476__BC_400__Cov_86.13% 0.02434676 • 31.0 0.0 0.0 68.8 0.2 0.0 Average 0.01736538 • 36.8 0.1 2.4 36.8 8.4 15.5 Т.е. предимно смесени гърци и сармати, като тракийска наполовина излиза една проба и част от друга. Една проба удря сериозен Балтийски сигнал, вероятно смъкнат на юг от сармати.

И също за който представлява интерес, защото в нета има малко снимкова информация от тракийски погребални стели (или какъвто е правилния термин за тези погребални камъни) от НИМ или Археологическия, не помня вече:

Още малко AI спам:

И аз мислех, че тези R-Z93 са оригиналните носители на прото-тракийския, който са индо-европейзирали E-V13, но може и нещата да са по-засукани. Райх и компания са интерпретирали нещата така: Аз лично мисля да не коментирам засега въпроса за ранния произход на E-V13, докато не излязат няколко статии тази година (дано): - The Willerslev 1200 BC paper. - The Matzinger/Reich paper from Bronze to Iron Age Balkans (Траките са един от обектите на това изследване). - The Transylvanian Bronze Age paper. - The Transylvanian IA paper. - The Carpathian Bronze Age paper - тези последните 3 се твърди, че са съвсем отделни изследвания. - И не на последно място, Българското изследване, в което Стамов участва. Иначе тази Кримска проба подозрително прилича автозомно на повечето Scythian Outliers - т.е. скити смесени с EEF-rich южноевропейци. Така че да, скити, гърци, траки, пред-скитски племена и палео-кавказци, вероятно всички са били силно смесени в района на Крим. За Траки в Украйна съм чувал, че спорадично са достигали до Днепър, при силно смесване със скити по тяхно време. От друга страна, поне до Днестър траките са коренно население, (вероятно от това, което ще се нарече гети в по-късните етапи от развитието си) и предшестват и кимерите и скитите в района. Отделно както споменава и ти, Боспорското царство узурпирано от тракийска династия, говори за някакви връзки с региона. Като каза таври, това ме подсети за забавния факт, че Черкези и други кавказки народи агресивно са почнали да пропагандират, че са техни наследници, както и прочие, всички неясни племена от типа на синди и меотийци в района. Не знам на каква основа са стъпили...

Още малко just for fun AI:

Интересно сведение, благодаря. Предполагах, че това може да е така заради многото E-V13, което излиза от териториите, където са родени. Дали имаш представа в оригиналния текст дали пише точно тракиец или бес?

Малко неделен AI аутизъм с римските статуи на дакийските пленници:

Резултатът е практически верен, просто е получен по странен модел. При нас всичкото Iron Age + Anatolia (южен комплекс) обикновено излиза 65% срещу 35 Североизток.

Може и да съм assume-нал, че идеята е била за композит. При всички положения, при нас няма само 1 вид Balkans Iron Age, за това и няма как просто да си изберем точен модел с по 1 Iron age популация.

Individuals from the first cluster fall on an area of the PCA delimited by the “ Balkan Iron Age cline” (Figure 1A). Consistent with this, we model the ancestry of this Balkans Iron Age Cluster as predominantly deriving from Iron Age (IA) groups from nearby areas in the Balkans, with 67% Aegean Bronze Age-related ancestry and the remainder Slovenia Iron Age-related ancestry (Figure 2; Supplementary section 12.1). A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Y-chromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron Age expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans 17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living at Viminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial and later periods (∼47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE). This suggests that present-day populations are not direct descendants without admixture of Iron Age groups from the same region, and that similar demographic shaped Balkan populations from North to South over the past 2,000 years. Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples | bioRxiv За жалост са ползвали и някакви Bronze Age популации в тоя клъстер, обаче ние имаме възможността да си го направим ръчно. Аз съм го правил преди време това вече, нищо интересно, но го давам за пример как да избегнем чудене сега с BGR IA ли да моделираме, дали с някое друго IA. Ползотворното на този композит е, че балансира славянския елемент, понеже ние със сигурност нямаме 50%. Този баланс идва от северняшката част на West Balkans Iron Age. При мен днешната популация с Balkans Iron Age: Average 0.01849624 Anatolia - 26.4 Balkans_IA - 34.8 Sarmatian+Turkic - 3.0 Slavic - 35.8

Разни модели с други Iron Age популации могат да се правят, те също се държат добре, примерно Albania-Croatia Iron Age, Македонското също. Ако държиш да ги ползваш, просто най-добре за теб ще е да използваш композита "Balkans Iron Age", който май пак Оладе ползваше - това предполагам знаеш, комбинира Bulgaria Iron Age + CRO/ALB Iron Age, не знам дали хваща Гърция, там имаше 2-3 проби от Тъмните векове. Според мен, този западно балкански Iron Age също им контрибуция при нас, което личи от присъствието при нас на J2b-L283 / R1b-Z2103.

Дава ни благонадежден модел, който да се ползва като мерило за тестване на индивидуални проби или averages. Като познание ни дава възможността да разграничим допълнителни етнически елементи влезли в състава ни като народ.

Това с дублирането после го минах изключвайки повтарящите се проби и изненадващо или не, нищо не се променя. Грешиш, ако мислиш, че аз искам да се наложа в тази ситуация. Нямам нищо против да съм в грешка, просто не мога да намеря такава в този случай. Предоставих и информация, която може да се провери като цяло от всеки. Освен това, етикетите на моите Анатолийски проби ги е правил един грък, който със сигурност разбира нещата повече от мен, аз само си избрах десетина от неговите проби, които можеха да възпроизведат модела на Оладе.

Благодаря, не бях проверявал точно кое са ползвали като референция досега. Обаче, като ги проверих и всички изглеждат съвсем анатолийски, като само 2-ма имат малък BGR IA примес и то реално не влияе по никакъв начин на калкулатора. Има и няколко дублиращи се, които аз съм си определил за моя калкулатор като анатолийски. Човекът който е правил модела от скрийншота е допуснал за мен грешка, понеже той не е направил дедикейтед Анатолийски клъстер, а е предпочел да направи модел, в който Анатолия е разпарчетосана на няколко елемента. Моделът му започва да "пресъздава" Анатолия през прокси комбинации, които математически може и да минават метъра, но фактологично са неверни. Остава аз да съм луд, ама ето ги резултатите пуснати срещу анатолийски и тракийски семпли: Target Distance Anatolia ILLYRIAN Medieval_Turkic_KAZ_Kipchak Sarmatian Thracian-Kapitan-Andreevo Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja:I15513 0.00000000 • 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja:I15526 0.00000000 • 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Serbia_ViminaciumGrobalja:I15524 0.01945182 • 98.6 1.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Serbia_ViminaciumPecine:I15532 0.00000000 • 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Serbia_ViminaciumRit:I15488 0.00000000 • 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Serbia_ViminaciumRit:I15489 0.02720966 • 96.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.0 Serbia_ViminaciumRit:I15508 0.02875457 • 79.6 6.2 0.0 0.0 14.2 Serbia_ViminaciumPirivoj:I15502 0.00000000 • 100.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Croatia_Jagodnjak:I26746 0.02465961 • 71.0 0.0 0.2 0.0 28.8 Croatia_Osijek:I26753 0.02592903 • 95.8 0.0 4.2 0.0 0.0 Croatia_TrogirDragulin:I26707 0.02090962 • 80.4 12.0 1.4 6.2 0.0 Average 0.01335585 • 92.9 1.8 0.5 0.6 4.3 После взех тия семпли и ги заместих в моя си калкулатор и минах всички семпли на днешното ни население вече с новия Анатолийски клъстер и осреднено се получава: Average 0.02102000 Anatolia - 26.3% Sarmatian+Turkic - 5.6% Slavic - 50.7% BGR_IA - 17.2% После го сравних с мойта си DIY версия: Average 0.02103917 Anatolia - 25.3% Sarmatian+Turkic - 5.8% Slavic - 50.8% Thracian - 18.0% От което за мен е видимо, че моделът който съм направил на сляпо е достатъчно точен спрямо Оладе и съответно сметките на човека от скрийншота не са окей.

Не са, вероятно те бъркат имената им, понеже от 1 локация има индивиди, които са чисти Анатолийци и от същия некропол индивиди, които са чисти Iron Age-ери, както има и смесени индивиди като тези. За моделът с анатолийците съм ползвал само анатолийските проби, такива IA и смесени - не. Отделно от това, човекът е правил модела от скрийншита е селектирал всички E-V13 индивид на базата само на това, но мисля, че ще и свърши работа по линия на това което ме пита. Всъщност, за моя модел ли имаш предвид ,или онзи който е постнал Оладе в изследването си?

Ами в случая, това са самите проби от Капитан Андреево, така че времевия и географския ареал е изцяло техния. Келти идват чак след 279 пр.Хр. но от тях няма нищо намерено на наша територия. Истински келти на Балканите се сещам, че бяха намерени в Словения, но за други места може и да не съм чул. Иначе, тези антропологични данни показват само какво е положението с пробите сами по себе си; за по-обширен анализ, който да ни даде инфо за всички траки/даки, засега може само да мечтаем.

Не пречи, и аз това казвам. За пробите - за жалост навремето си отделих само анатолийците, понеже те ми трябваха и сега не мога да намеря индивидуално всичко. Все пак, това са всички проби от изследването, макар и да не са описани добре: Olalde_Balkan_G25.txt - Google Диск Иначе от тук може също да се вземе инфо за някои от семплите, макар че Анатолия в този калкулатор е разцепена между ITA_Rome_Imperial / Armenia_LIA / Levant_LBN_Roman:

Донякъде на общи основания, то е ясно, че половината от нещата, които дискутираме са assumptions базирани на някои данни, с които разполагаме. От дако-гетите едва ли ще имаме скоро някакви резулати поради кремационните им погребални практики. Все пак, това което може да се хвърли на масата по темата са автозомните данни от The Roman Frontier изследването, където населението в изследваните територии след 3-4 век вече трябва да е било представено точно от тези трако-римляни, които идват от евакуираната Дакия. Те показват наличие на два основни елемента - Bulgaria Iron Age + Anatolia Iron Age, както и доминация на E-V13 като хаплогрупа. Дори това да не са тези евакуирани хора от Дакия, то пак трябва по някакъв начин да се обясни сериозното присъствие точно в тези територии на намерената комбинация Bulgaria Iron Age + Anatolia Iron Age + масово E-V13. В този период започва и варварската инфилтрация на германци и степни иранци, но след 6ти век следите им изчезват, обаче старите елементи Bulgaria Iron Age + Anatolia Iron Age продължават да съществуват, a пък хаплогрупа E-V13 търпи звездообразно пръсване из целите Балкани. Относно славяните потенциално смесени с даки още на север от Дунав - може, просто засега не може да се отдели каква част от BGR IA е донесена от тях и каква е от власи/трако-римляни. Иначе може и това да има влияние. Все пак при северните славяни се забелязва малка инфилтрация на дакийските E-V13.

Трансилвания засега остава номер 1 опция за всичко това, но пак ще изчакам да видя нови изследвания по въпроса, защото Iron Age Hungary, който седи във връзка с културите в IA Трансилвания, е бъкано с WHG. А това е проблем за Капитан-Андреевци с техния близо 0% WHG.

Мисля че трябва да обясня "етикетите", които вероятно са объркващи. За автозомния примес - популацията от Капитан Андреево е изградена от т.нар. Bulgaria Iron Age елемент. Обаче това като етнически компонент е същото което го има и на север от Дунав, дори дако-гетите да са били смесени с други етноси, това трябва да им е била основата. Днешните оцелели клони на E-V13, за които стана въпрос, подсказват, че сме наследили северните дакийски клончета на E-V13, а не клончето на Капитан-Андреевци. Въпреки това, тези групи (Капитан Андреево + румънските дако-гети) са основно изградени от т.нар. Bulgarian Iron Age автозомен елемент. Тоест, нашият Bulgarian Iron Age елемент не е задължително да идва от траки от Тракия, но не може да идва директно от дако-гети. Така че, вероятно е дошъл през асимилацията на Средновековни власи, които са носели в себе си северните разновидности на E-V13 и от части Bulgarian Iron Age автозомния примес (заедно с други примеси в случая). Но това с което разполагаме в момента са геноми южно от Дунава и тях ползваме за моделиране. И тук идва проблемът, че центрирайки се точно в българската генетика, ние не гледаме по-мащабно, защото трябва да се вземе под въпрос, че същите процеси афектират и останалите ни съседи. В Гърция също се появява E-V13 от северните разновидности, в Румъния, Сърбия, Македония, Албания и т.н. по един и същ модел в сходен диапазон от време - между 7ми до 12 век. Ядрото на всичко това е в Албания, но аз лично не мисля, че това е албанска контрубуция на Балканите. Мисля, че ясно подсказва, че власите преди да се разселят към Румъния трябва да са били някъде около Албания и това вероятно е корена на това, което сме усвоили като E-V13 + атозомния Bulgarian Iron Age примес, заедно и с други примеси покрай това. От друга страна, Croatia-Albania Iron Age примеси и хаплогрупи (J2b-L283 + R1b-Z2103 + R1b-PF7563) също циркулират из Балканите, просто с по-малко влияние. На този етап, следната теоретична хронология може да се даде: - Северните клончета на E-V13 се появяват на Балканите при евакуацията на Дакия и създаването на двете нови дакийски провинции в Мизия след 3 в.сл.Хр. - Тези нови провинции, които автозомно са предимно Anatolia Iron Age + Bulgaria Iron Age (нещо което се потвърждава от Roman Frontier изследването) са в контактна зона с това което някога са били дардани, пеони - племена, в чието лице, в общи линии, трябва да се търси произхода на самите Албанци. - Между 3-ти век и идването на Славяните текат процеси на взаимно влияние. E-V13 влиза в етногенетичните процеси на Албанците. В същото време се консолидира и прото-румънска народност някъде между Косово/Южна Сърбия/Западна България, по-известни като Власи. - Славянските нашествия на Балканите разбъркват сериозно етническата картина и задействат влашките миграции из Балканите, което довежда до инфилтрацията между 7-ми и 12-ти век на хаплогрупа E-V13, както и на автозомните примеси "Bulgarian Iron Age" + "Anatolia Iron Age" из Балканите.

Olade ползват Капитан Андреевци, да. Аз лично съм правил калулатор, който емулира модела на Olade и в моя модел съм включил всички известни ни проби, които са достъпни, които съм постнал в първия пост също кои са. Процентите Bulgarian Iron Age си остават 19% при всички положения в този мой модел. Не виждам защо да ползваме македонското желязо, то е на практика същото като албанското, черногорското, хърватското желязо - т.е. етнически илири. Не виждам защо трябва да обясняваме нашия Iron Age компонент с илири, няма логика. Ако говорим за Anatolia Iron Age - там ние имаме 23% и това е съвсем отделно от BGR IA компонента. Каквото и да си говорим за автозомни примеси, не забравяй, че ние имаме допълнителна информация идваща от хаплогрупите. E-V13 идва като потвърждение защо използваме точно BGR IA, а не други IA.