Кухулин

Нещата са вързани. Всички гореописани ефекти почиват върху факта, че академичната общност не владее добре археогенетичната тематика. В частност д-р Чобанов и, да ме прости господ, д-р Нешева. Това дава поле за най-широки интерпретации на различните изяви. Там трябва да се насочат усилията, а интеграцията после, като има какво да се интегрира.

Под "прабългари" обикновено се приема всичко, което е дошло с Аспарух. А вече вътре ядро, снежни топки, това е отделен проблем. Следователно, за да отделим прабългарите, трябват много плътни проби от популациите преди тях.

Съществува теоретична възможност да има някакъв по-висок прабългарски компонент в турскоговорещите популации. Те са различни от останалите българи.

Мерси. Явно Г25 не хваща разликата.

n/a (female) I2a1b1a2b1~ I1a2a1a1a1b I1a2a1a1a I1a n/a (female) I2a1b1a2b1a~ n/a (female) n/a (female) n/a (female) R1b1a1b1a1a2b n/a (female) G2a1a1a1a1a1 n/a (female) n/a (female) R1a1a1b2a2a1 ...

Дай да ги видим на тоя плот унгарските сармати: HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181013 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181014 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181015 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181016 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181017 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181018 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181019 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Danube-Tisza:A181020 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181021 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181022 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181023 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181024 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181025 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181026 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181027 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181028 Може Г25 нещо да бяга.

За сравнение давам баш хунския сармат от другото изследване: Тоя италианец от битката при Химера е степен наемник.

Абе тия сармати нещо много местни изглеждат в Г25...

За база на досегашния анализ служи предположението, че съвременният български геном включва прабългарски компонент. Това предположение е добре обосновано и макар да не е много, в никакъв случай не е нула. От него отиваме към Ряховец и т. н. по веригата. Тоест има поле за анализ. Друг е въпросът, че трябва ясно да се осъзнават ограниченията на този анализ, което всъщност е доста сложна история.

Какво да ти кажа... и при минимални данни може да има читав анализ, и при обилни данни могат да се генерират алабализми. Проблемът е комплексен... Но да, при минимални данни алабализмите са особено очарователни

Вече се усеща, че това няма да е никаква помощ, а огромен проблем. За съжаление така е устроена днешната наука. За любителя темата е хоби и носи удоволствие, но за изследователя това е хлябът насъщен. А там системата може да даде на късо. Пита се - кому е нужно това? Отговор: никому.

Теоретично произходът на прабългарите би могъл да се изследва без привличане на съвременни популации. В реалността обаче надали ще се получи този номер, защото това изисква многобройни ясни и разнообразни проби като генетика и хронология. Да видим... А ако в анализа се включат и съвременните популации, тогава въпросът с Източна България може да има значение. Там генетичният профил е различен от това, което се приема в базите за стандартен българин (т. е. пловдивските проби).

Можем ли да предположим, че кавказкият сигнал в новите проби се оказва по-слаб от очакваното?

Все пак унгарците си имат сарматска проба от трети век: I20802, 200-300 CE, Hungary_Transtisza_Roman_Sarmation. За съжаление не виждам хаплогрупа, което е малко странно.

Ами... жужаните биха се учудили доста на това твърдение. Гьоктюрките също не са били много по интегрирането. Но иначе да - такава политика носи своите плодове. Например при хунну.

За "целенасочено" нищо не мога да кажа, но с останалото съм съгласен. Въпросът беше в количественото съотношение - каква част от хуните са със сарматски геном. Това, естествено, е свързано с въпроса каква част от сарматските проби в периода 4-6 век са хунски.

Пишеш някакви думи, свързани в изречения, а лично аз нищо не разбирам. Защо са ти "чисто сарматски наименования", каквото и да значи това? Ако ги няма, то какво следва от липсата им?

Какво ще ни даде този анализ?

Тук стои тънкият въпрос що е това нещо "хун". Ако приемем всички унгарски проби от периода за "хуни", там има и сармати, и хунну, и черняхово, и какво ли не. Обаче нали се сещаш, че хуните заварват в Унгария местно население, а то вече е шарено. Сармати са ходили по тези места и преди хуните.

Лично аз в момента не мога да ти дам сериозен фийдбек по въпроса, защото трябва да инсталирам наново целия професионален софт. Но ако искаме да се прецизира връзката "сармати - съвременни българи", бих постъпил така: пускам аутгруп ф3 на сарматите и няколко други синхронни популации спрямо българите. Ако сарматската статистика е ниска, значи разделянето е късно и общия геном е голям. Значи въпросните сармати са директен компонент на българите, сравнено с останалите популации. Ако сарматската статистика е висока, а популациите се покриват върху плота, значи имат близки компоненти - няколко популации са се смесили и са образували сарматите, а близки до тях популации са се смесили и са образували съвременните българи.

X: PCA1 Y: PCA2 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:BOR001,0.023903,-0.430584,0.072784,-0.039406,-0.053548,-0.04016,0.00846,0.016615,0.003068,0.023873,-0.046768,-0.004646,0.003122,-0.001514,-0.006515,-0.007292,0.002738,-0.012922,-0.005028,0.02051,-0.03132,-0.020526,-0.02354,-0.001566,0.001317 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:BUL002,0.027318,-0.430584,0.057322,-0.034238,-0.036622,-0.031794,0.00611,0.020538,0.0045,0.013668,-0.052451,-0.002698,0.001635,-0.006055,-0.002172,0.005038,0.001695,-0.006208,-0.006536,0.019259,-0.007487,-0.000495,-0.01442,-0.003976,0.000359 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:MIT001,0.027318,-0.425507,0.095412,-0.040052,-0.08063,-0.046575,0.014806,0.032306,0.006749,0.01713,-0.032965,0.001199,0,0.004954,-0.001629,-0.002121,-0.002217,0.000633,0.000754,0.02176,-0.022959,0,-0.017008,-0.007591,-0.001437 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:ULN001,0.018212,-0.438709,0.072784,-0.02907,-0.055703,-0.04267,0.00893,0.023999,0.014726,0.016219,-0.038648,0.000599,0.000149,0.001789,0.000136,-0.009149,-0.012517,-0.007475,0.003394,0.011881,-0.024706,0.002473,-0.021322,-0.008073,0.003712 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:ULN003,0.03187,-0.429569,0.073539,-0.02907,-0.072937,-0.04518,0.012926,0.016615,0.016566,0.012757,-0.038324,0.00015,0.000595,-0.003578,0.003936,0.001591,0.00665,0,0.000126,0.028013,-0.038557,0.01014,-0.016762,-0.010122,0.007903 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:ULN006,0.020488,-0.420429,0.070522,-0.028747,-0.075399,-0.055778,0.013866,0.021691,0.011453,0.02442,-0.043358,-0.004496,-0.005946,-0.001376,0.006107,-0.001326,0.003912,0,0.000503,0.020385,-0.024956,-0.001855,-0.025143,-0.00735,0.001916 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:ULN007,0.022765,-0.44074,0.078064,-0.034238,-0.059088,-0.034582,0.010575,0.014769,0.001432,0.019864,-0.050016,-0.003147,0.000595,0.00578,0.000271,-0.001458,-0.002999,-0.004814,-0.000251,0.014382,-0.02009,-0.003091,-0.02465,-0.002651,0.005508 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:ULN009,0.027318,-0.435662,0.084475,-0.024871,-0.080938,-0.048527,0.012926,0.020076,0.013499,0.011481,-0.030367,-0.005695,-0.002081,0.006331,-0.007193,-0.000663,0.00665,-0.006208,0.00176,0.026012,-0.026329,-0.003339,-0.024157,-0.007109,-0.005628 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave:ULN010,0.023903,-0.432616,0.065242,-0.031977,-0.062165,-0.036535,0.011045,0.016845,0.019225,0.020228,-0.050178,-0.002548,0.000446,-0.00289,0.007465,-0.000265,0.003651,-0.004941,0.00352,0.016508,-0.025954,0.000742,-0.013064,-0.004699,-0.002275 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:AKB001,0.085367,-0.137096,0.064488,0.043605,-0.032006,0.00502,0.002115,0.002308,-0.010022,-0.019135,-0.016401,-0.003147,0.000297,-0.017203,0.015472,0.003182,-0.000913,-0.003294,-0.005154,0.001626,-0.020838,0.005193,-0.007888,-0.001205,-0.006945 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:BKT001,0.088782,-0.060932,0.05506,0.050711,-0.036622,0.011435,0.00047,0.005538,-0.018816,-0.02442,-0.007145,0.004496,0.000446,-0.018304,0.005565,0.005701,-0.015125,0.0019,-0.006536,0.002626,-0.016471,0.006554,-0.006532,0.006266,-0.001078 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ001,0.092197,-0.108662,0.064865,0.05168,-0.041238,0.013108,-0.00047,-0.003231,-0.01718,-0.026971,-0.014128,-0.004796,-0.003717,-0.023258,0.011672,0.010209,-0.000391,-0.001647,-0.004399,0.007379,-0.016845,0.010758,-0.006409,0.009037,0.007305 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ003,0.087644,-0.117801,0.058454,0.055556,-0.044624,0.010598,0,-0.003231,-0.014726,-0.021868,-0.012179,-0.004646,-0.006987,-0.026011,0.006515,0.014585,0.001695,-0.001267,0.004399,0.006628,-0.014599,-0.000742,-0.003944,-0.003494,0.00467 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KKM001,0.080814,-0.113739,0.060716,0.049096,-0.028313,-0.000558,-0.0047,0.001846,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013965,0.002548,0.007433,-0.024772,0.015879,0.008088,-0.004694,0.003674,-0.004651,0.004627,-0.008485,0.003586,0.004437,0.006266,-0.001437 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH001,0.080814,-0.117801,0.058454,0.049096,-0.0437,0.00502,-0.000235,-0.010846,-0.011658,-0.022233,-0.013316,-0.000599,0.002676,-0.026011,0.017644,0.012066,0.000391,0.00228,-0.001131,0.007879,-0.02009,0.00371,0.004437,0.000964,-0.005508 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KAZ_Tasmola_IA:NUR002,0.084229,-0.148267,0.069013,0.047481,-0.03416,0.007251,0.00094,-0.006,-0.010226,-0.022415,-0.009906,-0.003447,0.004014,-0.01445,0.013436,-0.003845,-0.013951,-0.00152,-0.004777,0.002876,-0.020464,0.00136,-0.003451,-0.002651,-0.010179 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:SRK001,0.075123,-0.155376,0.057699,0.032623,-0.035391,-0.008646,0.00517,0.006923,-0.008385,-0.011299,-0.012504,-0.005545,-0.000743,-0.021607,0.012351,0.00769,-0.00326,-0.000507,0.00264,0.005878,-0.010981,-0.003339,0.000493,-0.004097,0.002395 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL003,0.08992,-0.089367,0.065242,0.05168,-0.041238,0.005578,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.01718,-0.022962,-0.007632,-0.003897,0.0055,-0.020231,0.018594,0.019491,0.005476,0.002787,-0.003645,0.008754,-0.020963,0.004946,-0.002835,0.007471,-0.003712 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL004,0.08992,-0.109677,0.058077,0.053941,-0.042469,0.004183,-0.000235,0.001385,-0.010431,-0.027335,-0.007307,0.001349,0.006987,-0.024359,0.014658,0.010872,-0.002608,0.004054,-0.005782,0.009129,-0.011979,0.005935,0.001849,-0.003374,0.002994 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL005,0.092197,-0.109677,0.055437,0.04522,-0.025235,0.014223,0,0.001385,-0.01718,-0.013303,-0.014615,-3e-04,0.009663,-0.029451,0.008686,0.003713,0.001043,-0.003547,-0.002011,0.004127,-0.020713,0.005812,0.003081,0.00012,0.000958 KAZ_Tasmola_IA:WAR001,0.087644,-0.101553,0.04978,0.055556,-0.04647,0.001673,0.006815,-0.002769,-0.009817,-0.030069,-0.011692,-0.003897,0.005649,-0.020368,0.026465,0.005569,-0.01017,-0.002534,-0.006536,-0.004127,-0.015722,0.004575,0.003451,0.004458,-0.004431 HUN_Hun_period:MSG1,0.034147,-0.356451,0.062602,-0.024871,-0.044008,-0.019801,0.00376,0.00923,0.003272,0.002734,-0.035238,-0.002698,0.00446,-0.006331,0.0019,0.001989,-0.005085,-0.007855,0.002514,0.003627,-0.01672,-0.008285,-0.011339,0.00253,0.001796 HUN_Hun_period:VZ12673,0.048944,-0.323954,0.058077,-0.002261,-0.045855,-0.019801,0.00752,0.009692,0.003272,-0.004374,-0.026632,-0.004646,0.000297,-0.00867,0.006243,0.001326,0.004042,0.00076,0.003771,0.015007,-0.01123,-0.003215,-0.010599,0.001325,0.000239 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1801,0.039838,-0.384886,0.082967,-0.020026,-0.075399,-0.031515,0.017626,0.026537,0.013294,0.011116,-0.020786,-0.003147,0.003271,-0.00055,0.002986,-0.008618,-0.001825,-0.000253,0.001006,0.011506,-0.019341,0.00507,-0.018364,0.000843,0.002036 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1802,0.037562,-0.417383,0.09692,-0.024225,-0.085554,-0.051874,0.008695,0.026537,0.016362,0.008747,-0.022897,-0.001349,-0.006541,0.00055,0.005565,-0.000398,-0.000652,-0.001774,0.004902,0.018759,-0.023459,-0.00643,-0.012078,-0.001807,0.000479 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1816,0.039838,-0.42246,0.100314,-0.026486,-0.090786,-0.050479,0.012926,0.029999,0.007363,0.018953,-0.012504,0.005545,-0.003717,0.005643,0.003393,0.003713,0,-0.005701,0.002891,0.016883,-0.032568,-0.006925,-0.026868,-0.006868,-0.000479 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1817,0.0774,-0.119832,0.037712,-0.04199,-0.044316,-0.037092,0.012926,0.014999,0.01084,0.014761,-0.007145,0.007343,-0.007879,0.01156,-0.00665,-0.017104,-0.012908,-0.006841,0.00264,-0.00075,-0.014724,-0.001607,-0.012571,-0.00241,-0.010418 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1818,0.043253,-0.382855,0.095034,-0.019057,-0.092633,-0.044344,0.015746,0.027691,0.005931,0.009476,-0.01088,0.004496,-0.002081,0.00234,0.003936,-0.004773,0.007041,0.00038,-0.001383,0.007629,-0.01697,0,-0.010969,-0.010363,0 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1819,0.034147,-0.414336,0.105217,-0.024225,-0.087709,-0.06275,0.010575,0.025614,0.013703,0.017312,-0.006496,0.003447,0.003717,0.01101,0.001357,0.003713,0.002347,-0.002914,-0.00088,0.019009,-0.035812,0.005688,-0.023664,0.000843,0.001796 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1821,0.039838,-0.417383,0.097674,-0.026809,-0.085862,-0.051316,0.015981,0.029537,0.013703,0.00492,-0.009094,-0.003147,-0.001635,0.002615,0.000814,-0.007027,-0.00665,-0.008108,0.007165,0.006878,-0.027951,-0.006183,-0.028717,-0.001687,-0.001317 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1822,0.048944,-0.399103,0.089378,-0.023256,-0.079092,-0.046017,0.019271,0.026076,0.009613,0.015126,-0.027768,0.001199,-0.004311,0.014175,0.007057,-0.004641,-0.002086,0.001014,0.000754,0.013131,-0.030446,-0.011994,-0.023664,-0.008194,0.005029 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:A1823,0.036423,-0.411289,0.086361,-0.025517,-0.077861,-0.054105,0.021151,0.029537,0.014317,0.020228,-0.01429,0,0.00223,-0.005643,0.006922,0.001724,0.001304,-0.001014,0.006034,0.018884,-0.022211,-0.001237,-0.020952,0,0.007185 HUN_Avar_Early_Danube-Tisza:I18743,0.035285,-0.411289,0.098428,-0.026486,-0.088632,-0.044065,0.018566,0.023076,0.015953,0.016219,-0.011367,-0.001199,-0.002081,0.008945,0.000136,0.009944,0.012517,-0.005448,0.004399,0.017383,-0.010856,-0.00643,-0.019966,-0.000361,0.006826 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231,0.122929,0.082258,0.044877,0.113697,-0.033852,0.046575,0,-0.006,-0.051949,-0.072165,0.007307,0.001051,0.003271,-0.022708,0.029994,0.018297,0.005998,-0.003547,-0.00176,0.011005,-0.003244,0,-0.001725,0.013616,-0.000838 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012532,-0.005269 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438,0.126344,0.085304,0.042615,0.122741,-0.032929,0.048806,-0.002115,0.002077,-0.068925,-0.080548,0.00065,0.002548,-0.00892,-0.029176,0.032437,0.011668,0.002347,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.018009,-0.00025,0.001731,0.021199,0.021328,-0.007185 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439,0.127482,0.096475,0.037335,0.117896,-0.017542,0.038487,0.00329,-0.006,-0.052154,-0.057587,0.001949,-0.000599,-0.007582,-0.02257,0.038273,0.016441,-0.002217,-0.004941,-0.00352,0.018634,-0.001996,0.00643,0.015529,0.02663,-0.00934 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.018918,0.002036 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444,0.125205,0.08632,0.045632,0.119188,-0.024928,0.047969,0.00564,-0.001154,-0.050108,-0.073259,0.002598,0.002847,0,-0.042663,0.029451,0.022938,-0.000522,0.003294,-0.010307,0.013131,-0.015098,0.004204,0.010846,0.016267,0.003952 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489,0.122929,0.090382,0.042238,0.110144,-0.03416,0.043507,0.004935,0.000692,-0.058085,-0.082735,0.005196,0.004046,-0.010406,-0.006881,0.041123,0.01485,-0.008345,-0.006588,-0.002388,0.006878,-0.010232,-0.001731,0.014173,0.018075,-0.006586 https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/

Това тълкуване на данните е леко... хаотично. 1) Когато мериш източния компонент с Дяволската пещера, можеш да използваш стойностите само за сравнение с други проби. Примерно кой е по-източен - хуни или скити. Даже и там трябва да се внимава по технически причини (ако сложиш ДП отляво, коя ще ти е основната източна популация отдясно). Но в никакъв слуай не можеш да използваш ДП за тълкуване на исторически микс, защото това са източни неолитни азиати. Няма как да са директен компонент на хуните. За тази цел си има монголски плочести гробове (например I12969). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab-grave_culture 2) Не знам защо наричаш Tasmola_Pazyryk "скитски саргат" (две напълно разлини култури), но няма как да кажеш "60% далечен изток и останалите 40% е скитски саргат". Причината е, че Пазърък сам по себе си има достатъчно висок източен компонент. Тоест, когато кажеш, че някаква проба има толкова и толкова източен компонент, следва това да е целият източен компонент в съответната проба, а не една част от него. С уточнението от т. 1 - какво разбираме под "източен компонент" в конкретния случай. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmola_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargat_culture 3) Никой никъде не обявява унгарските хуни за "преследвачите им, сянбей". Това се отнася за казахстанските проби от село Берел. Те така са и маркирани - Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE. Накрая един плот, за да се ориентират хората за какво иде реч: Червени кръстчета - източния компонент от плочестите гробове. Сините кръгчета - проби от аварския елит с висок ИА. Оранжевите квадратчета - унгарския хунски елит. Зеленото - скити от Пазърък. Лилавите хиксчета - Ямна.

В Казахстан има няколко генетични проби от популацията на унгарския хунски елит. Периодът е 3-6 век. Despite the paucity of Hun period samples, we can discern a “Hun-cline” along the PC1 axis (Figure 2A) extending east to west. Two individuals, MSG-1 and VZ-12673 (the same sample as HUN001,21 resequenced with higher coverage), project to the extreme eastern pole of the cline, close to modern Kalmyks and Mongols. Both graves belonged to warriors and contained partial horse remains. On PC50 clustering, they tightly cluster together with two other Hun period samples: Kurayly_Hun_380CE (KRY001)21 and a Tian Shan Hun outlier (DA127)20 (Data S3). As latter samples also form a genetic clade with VZ-12673 in qpAdm (see below), we grouped these four samples under the name of Hun_Asia_Core (Figure 2), although analyzed the new samples separately. The Hun_Asia_Core also clusters with numerous Xiongnu, Medieval Mongol, Turk,22 and Xianbei21 genomes from Mongolia as well as several Avar samples from this study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982222007321

Не е фатално. Важното е специалистите, които движат нещата, да нямат принципен разнобой по научната методология. Така е, съгласен съм.

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