Местоположение на българите преди Стара Велика България от 7 в.

[D3loFF]

Преди 10 часа, Янков said:

Това си е за тема историческо моделиране или поне за холивудски "политически коректен" сценарий. Доколкото разбирам смяташ че Кубрат/Кубер е починал, синовете му се разделили, Аспарух е преминал Дунав и е основал България, след което недоволен от действията на синовете си се е върнал от оня свят и обсадил Солун през 685 година? А къде е Гандалф в цялата тази история?

А подобен коментар плюс тези, които са го "лайкнали" е от хора, които дори не могат да прочетат две изречения на гръцки (че и на български, защото ги има в темата) и не могат да осмислят какво пише в две текстчета по 10 реда всяко. Подобни излияния и са за някой стругарски цех, не за теми където се иска мислене и анализ... оп, извинявай, те и стругарските цехове вече искат доста по задълбочени умения.

По-малко телевизия, повече четене следващия път.

Редактирано Октомври 17, 2024 от D3loFF

[D3loFF]

@miroki @БатеВаньо

Впрочем покрай споменаването на Бароний в другата тема ето една извадка за Сирмиум:

Sub quo quidem consule inquit Cassiodorus virtute domini nostri regis Theodorici victis Bulgaribus, Sirmium recepit Italia

"При този консул, казва Касиодор, с доблестта на нашия господар крал Теодорих, след като бяха победени българите, Сирмиум беше върнат на Италия.“

Отнася се към 504 г. и дава повече детайли може би за същото нещо за което Енодий пише похвалното слово.

Но пак Сирмиум излиза за пореден път с българско присъствие в 6 в. Там около тоя град се върти цялата работа. Много интересно.

И едно друго:

Bulgaros Hunnorum vocabulo designare, qui loquendi modus viros doctos irretitos tenuit.

Да се обозначат българите с термина „хуни“, начин на говорене, който е обърквал учените хора.

Има и други интересни, но нямам време да ги извадя всичките засягащи българите.

Редактирано Ноември 13, 2024 от D3loFF

[miroki]

Преди да съм изгубил линка на Багренородни, го качвам тук, с липсващата в ГИБИ част.

42. Description géographique de Thessalonique jusqu’au Danube et la ville de Belgrade; de la Turquie et du territoire des Petchénègues à la cité Khazar de Sarkel, à la Russie et à la Nekropyla situées dans la mer Noire, près de la rivière Dniepr ; et à Cherson et Bosporus, entre lesquelles se trouvent les cités des Régions, puis au lac Méotis, qui de par sa taille est appelé une mer, la ville appelée Tamatarkha ; et en plus de la Zichie, la Papagie, la Kasachie, l'Alanie et l’Abasgie jusqu’à la ville de Sotirioupolis.

De Thessalonique au fleuve Danube, où se trouve la cité appelée Belgrade, il faut compter un voyage de huit jours si l’on ne voyage pas précipitamment mais par étapes tranquilles. Les Turcs vivent au-delà du Danube, sur la terre de Moravie mais aussi de ce côté-là, entre le Danube et la rivière Sava.

[1]Près du Danube inférieur, vis-à-vis de Dristra, commence le pays des Petchenègues, et leur domination s'étend jusqu'à Sarkel, forteresse des Khazars, dans laquelle ils ont une garnison de 300 hommes qu'on relève tous les ans. Chez eux Sarkel signifie gîte blanc. Cet endroit a été bâti par le spatharocandidat Petronas, surnommé Camatéros;[2] car les Khazars avaient demandé à l'empereur Théophile[3] de leur faire construire cette forteresse. Le khagan et le bek[4] de Khazarie envoyèrent des ambassadeurs à cet empereur, pour lui demander qu'on leur construisît cette forteresse de Sarkel. L'empereur agréa leur demande, et envoya le spatharocandidat Petronas, dont nous venons de parler, avec des chelandia impériales, auxquelles il fit joindre celles du gouverneur de la Paphlagonie. Petronas aborda à Kherson, où il laissa ces chelandia, fit embarquer ses gens sur des vaisseaux de transport, et se rendit à l'endroit du Tanaïs,[5] où il devait construire la forteresse. Mais comme il n'y avait point de pierres nécessaires pour la construction de la cité, il y fit faire des fours à briques avec lesquelles il bâtit la forteresse : quant à la chaux, il la fit avec les petites pierres du fleuve. Après avoir construit la forteresse de Sarkel, ledit spatharocandidat retourna chez l'empereur et lui dit : « Si vous désirez posséder un pouvoir et une maîtrise absolus sur la cité de Kherson ainsi que sur les lieux environnants, pour qu’ils ne vous échappent pas, nommez votre propre gouverneur militaire et ne faites pas confiance aux notables et aux primats. » Car jusqu’à l’époque de l’empereur Théophile, aucun gouverneur militaire n’avait été envoyé là-bas et toute l’administration était aux mains du soi-disant primat, et de ceux appelés « pères de la cité ». L’empereur Théophile avisa sur ce sujet, afin d’envoyer tel ou tel gouverneur, et choisit enfin d’envoyer le spatharocandidat Petronas, parce qu’il avait une expérience des lieux et n’était pas malhabile dans la conduite des affaires ; il le nomma protospathaire puis gouverneur militaire et l’envoya à Kherson avec des ordres intimant au primat et aux autres de lui obéir ; et à partir de cette époque jusqu’à aujourd’hui, la tradition consiste à nommer ici les gouverneurs militaires de Kherson. Assez parlé maintenant de la construction de la cité de Sarkel.

Du Danube jusqu'à Sarkel, il y a soixante journées de route, et dans ce pays on trouve plusieurs fleuves entre lesquels le Dniestr et le Dniepr sont les plus considérables : les autres sont le Syngoul,[6] l’Hyboul, l'Almatai, le Kouphis, le Bogou et beaucoup d'autres. Les rives du haut Dniéper sont habitées par les Russes qui descendent ce fleuve pour se rendre dans les provinces romaines. Le territoire des Petchénègues embrasse toute la Russie et Bosporus et aussi loin que de Kherson à Sarat[ov], Bourat[7] et les 30 parties. La distance, le long de la côte, du Danube au Dniestr est de 120 milles. Du Dniestr jusqu’au Dniepr, il y a 80 milles, la soi-disant « côte dorée ».

Après l'embouchure de la rivière Dniepr est l'Adara, et on trouve une grand baie appelé Nekropyla,[8] qu’il est absolument impossible à un homme de traverser. Du fleuve Dniepr jusqu’à Cherson il y a 300 milles. Après Bosporus vient l'embouchure du lac Méotis, que tout le monde appelle Mer en raison de sa taille. [9] Dans cette même mer Méotis coulent de nombreuses et grandes rivières, du côté Nord coule la rivière Dnieper d'où les Russes viennent en passant en Bulgarie Noire, Khazarie et Syrie. Ce même golfe du Palus est en face des Nekropyles, qui sont proches du fleuve Dniepr (à 4 milles), et les rejoint où les Anciens avaient creusé un fossé d’une taille de mille milles dans cette place pour y donner passage aux eaux de la mer de manière que la presqu’île se trouvait entièrement séparée de la terre ferme mais ce fossé fut ensablé dans la suite des temps et remplacé par une forêt épaisse où il n’y a que deux routes le long desquelles les Petchénègues s’infiltrent vers Kherson, Bosporus et dans nos provinces.[10]

Plusieurs fleuves se jettent dans la partie orientale du Palus Méotis tels que le Tanaïs qui vient de la citéde Sarkel, le Karakoul où l’on fait la pèche des esturgeons, ainsi que d’autres fleuves tels que le Bal, le Bourlik, le Khadir et de nombreux autres. Mais le canal qui réunit le Palus Méotis au Pont Euxin s’appelle aussi Bourlik ; c’est là qu’est Bosporus à l’opposé de laquelle est située la ville de Tamatarkha[11] ; le canal mentionné a dix huit milles de largeur. Au milieu de cet espace de 18 milles est une grande île plate qui s’appelle Atekh. A quelques dix-huit ou vingt milles de Tamatarkha est la rivière nommée Oukrouch qui sépare la Zichie de Tamatarkha. La Zichie a une étendue de 300 milles depuis l’Oukrouch jusqu’au Nikopsis sur lequel est bâtie une ville de même nom. Au-delà de la Zichie se trouve la Papagie[12] ; au-delà de la Papagie, la Kasakhie[13] ; au-delà de la Kasakhie, les monts du Caucase et au-delà du Caucase le pays d’Alanie.[14] La Zichie possède aussi des îles qui bordent la côte, certaines: une grande et trois petites ; plus proches du rivage que ces dernières se trouvent d’autres îles cultivées et habitées Tourkhanerkh, Tzarbagan,[15] et une autre dans le port de Spalaton ; et à Ptéleai une autre qui put servir de refuge pendant les incursions des Alains. La mer [Noire] côtoie la région de Zichie depuis la rivière Nikopsis jusqu’à Sotérioupolis sur 300 milles où se trouve l’Abasgie.

 

Γεωγραφία ἀπὸ Θεσσαλονίκης μέχρι τοῦ Δανούβεως ποταμοῦ καὶ τοῦ κάστρου Βελεγράδας, Τουρκίας τε καὶ Πατζινακίας μέχρι tτοῦ Χαζαρικοῦ κάστρου Σάρκελ καὶ τῆς Ῥωσίας καὶ μέχρι τῶν Νεκροπύλων, τῶν ὄντων εἰς τὴν τοῦ Πόντου θάλασσαν πλησίον τοῦ Δανάπρεως ποταμοῦ, καὶ Χερσῶνος ὁμοῦ καὶ Βοσπόρου, ἐν οἷς τὰ κάστρα τῶν κλιμάτων εἰσίν, εἶτα μέχρι λίμνης Μαιώτιδος, τῆς καὶ θαλάσσης διὰ τὸ μέγεθος ἐπονομαζομένης, καὶ μέχρι τοῦ κάστρου Ταμάταρχα λεγοtμένου, πρὸς τούτοις δὲ καὶ Ζιχίας καὶ Παπαγίας καὶ Κασαχίας καὶ Ἀλανίας καὶ Ἀβασγίας καὶ μέχρι τοῦ κάστρου Σωτηριουπόλεως.

Ἰστέον, ὅτι ἀπὸ Θεσσαλονίκης μέχρι τοῦ ποταμοῦ Δανούβεως, ἐν ᾧ τὸ κάστρον ἐστὶν τὸ Βελέγραδα ἐπονομαζόμενον, ἔστιν ὁδὸς ἡμερῶν ὀκτώ, εἰ καὶ μὴ διὰ τάχους τις, ἀλλὰ μετὰ ἀναπαύσεως πορεύεται. Καὶ κατοικοῦσιν μὲν οἱ Τοῦρκοι πέραθεν τοῦ Δανούβεως ποταμοῦ εἰς τὴν τῆς Μοραβίας γῆν, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἔνθεν μέσον τοῦ Δανούβεως καὶ τοῦ Σάβα ποταμοῦ.

Ἀπὸ δὲ κάτωθεν τῶν μερῶν Δανούβεως ποταμοῦ τῆς Δίστρας ἀντίπερα ἡ Πατζινακία παρέρχεται, καὶ κατακρατεῖ ἡ κατοικία αὐτῶν μέχρι τοῦ Σάρκελ, τοῦ τῶν Χαζάρων κάστρου, ἐν ᾧ ταξεῶται καθέζονται τριακόσιοι, κατὰ χρόνον ἐναλλασσόμενοι. Ἑρμηνεύεται δὲ παρὰ αὐτοῖς τὸ Σάρκελ ‘ἄσπρον ὁσπίτιον’, ὅπερ ἐκτίσθη παρὰ σπαθαροκανδιδάτου Πετρωνᾶ, τοῦ ἐπονομαζομένου Καματηροῦ, τὸν βασιλέα Θεόφιλον πρὸς τὸ κτισθῆναι αὐτοῖς τὸ κάστρον τοῦτο τῶν Χαζάρων αἰτησαμένων. Ὁ γὰρ χαγάνος ἐκεῖνος καὶ ὁ πὲχ Χαζαρίας εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν βασιλέα Θεόφιλον πρέσβεις ἐναποστείλαντες, κτισθῆναι αὐτοῖς τὸ κάστρον τὸ Σάρκελ ᾐτήσαντο, οἷς ὁ βασιλεύς, τῇ τούτων αἰτήσει πεισθείς, τὸν προρρηθέντα σπαθαροκανδιδᾶτον Πετρωνᾶ μετὰ χελανδίων βασιλικῶν πλωΐμων ἀπέστειλεν καὶ χελάνδια τοῦ κατεπάνω Παφλαγονίας. Καὶ δὴ ὁ αὐτὸς Πετρωνᾶς τὴν Χερσῶνα καταλαβὼν τὰ μὲν χελάνδια ἔλιπεν ἐν Χερσῶνι, τὸν δὲ λαὸν εἰσαγαγὼν εἰς καματερὰ καράβια, ἀπῆλθεν ἐν τῷ τόπῳ τοῦ Τανάϊδος ποταμοῦ, ἐν ᾧ καὶ τὸ κάστρον ἔμελλεν κτίσαι. Καὶ ἐπειδὴ ὁ τόπος λίθους οὐκ εἶχεν πρὸς κτίσιν τοῦ κάστρου ἐπιτηδείους, καμίνιά τινα ποιησάμενος καὶ βήσσαλον ἐν αὐτοῖς ἐγκαύσας, μετ´ αὐτῶν τὴν τοῦ κάστρου κτίσιν ἐποιήσατο, ἐκ μικρῶν τινων τῶν ἐκ τοῦ ποταμοῦ κοχλιδίων ἄσβεστον ἐργασάμενος. Οὗτος οὖν ὁ προρρηθεὶς σπαθαροκανδιδᾶτος Πετρωνᾶς μετὰ τὸ κτίσαι τὸ κάστρον τὸ Σάρκελ πρὸς τὸν βασιλέα Θεόφιλον εἰσελθών, εἶπεν αὐτῷ, ὅτι· «Εἰ θέλῃς ὅλως τὸ τῆς Χερσῶνος κάστρον καὶ τοὺς ἐν αὐτῇ τόπους κυρίως ἐξουσιάσαι καὶ τούτους μὴ τῆς σῆς ἐκτὸς γενέσθαι χειρός, προβάλλου στρατηγὸν ἴδιον, καὶ μὴ τοῖς ἐκείνων καταπιστεύσῃς πρωτεύουσί τε καὶ ἄρχουσι.» Μέχρι γὰρ Θεοφίλου τοῦ βασιλέως οὐκ ἦν στρατηγὸς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐντεῦθεν ἀποστελλόμενος, ἀλλ´ ἦν ὁ τὰ πάντα διοικῶν ὁ λεγόμενος πρωτεύων μετὰ καὶ τῶν ἐπονομαζομένων πατέρων τῆς πόλεως. Τοῦ οὖν βασιλέως Θεοφίλου πρὸς ταῦτα βουλευσαμένου τὸν ὁ δεῖνα ἐξαποστεῖλαι στρατηγὸν ἢ τὸν ὁ δεῖνα, ὕστερον ἀποσταλῆναι προέκρινεν τὸν προρρηθέντα σπαθαροκανδιδᾶτον Πετρωνᾶν ὡς † ἔμπειρα † τοῦ τόπου γεγονότα καὶ τῶν πραγμάτων οὐκ ἀνεπιστήμονα, ὃν καὶ πρωτοσπαθάριον τιμήσας, προεβάλετο στρατηγόν, καὶ εἰς Χερσῶνα ἐξαπέστειλεν, ὁρίσας τὸν τότε πρωτεύοντα καὶ πάντας ὑπείκειν αὐτῷ, ἐξ οὗ καὶ μέχρι τὴν σήμερον ἐπεκράτησεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἐντεῦθεν εἰς Χερσῶνα προβάλλεσθαι στρατηγούς. Ἀλλ´ αὕτη μὲν ἡ τοῦ Σάρκελ τοῦ κάστρου κτίσις καθέστηκεν.

Ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ Δανούβεως ποταμοῦ μέχρι τοῦ προρρηθέντος κάστρου, τοῦ Σάρκελ ὁδός ἐστιν ἡμερῶν ξʹ. Μέσον δὲ τῆς τοιαύτης γῆς ποταμοὶ μέν εἰσιν πολλοί· δύο δὲ μέγιστοι ἐξ αὐτῶν ὅ τε Δάναστρις καὶ ὁ Δάναπρις. Εἰσὶ δὲ ἕτεροι ποταμοί, ὅ τε λεγόμενος Συγγοὺλ καὶ ὁ Ὑβὺλ 〈καὶ〉 ὁ Ἀλματαὶ καὶ ὁ Κοῦφις καὶ ὁ Βογοῦ καὶ ἕτεροι πολλοί. Εἰς δὲ τὰ ὑψηλότερα τοῦ Δανάπρεως ποταμοῦ μέρη κατοικοῦσιν οἱ Ῥῶς, δι´ οὗ ποταμοῦ ἀποπλέοντες, πρὸς Ῥωμαίους ποιοῦνται τὴν ἄφιξιν. Ἡ δὲ Πατζινακία πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν 〈μέχρι〉 τῆς τε Ῥωσίας καὶ Βοσπόρου κατακρατεῖ καὶ μέχρι Χερσῶνος καὶ ἕως τὸ Σαράτ, Βουρὰτ καὶ τῶν λʹ μερῶν. Τὸ δὲ τῆς παραλίας τῆς θαλάσσης ἀπὸ τοῦ Δανούβεως ποταμοῦ διάστημα μέχρι τοῦ Δανάστρεως ποταμοῦ εἰσιν μίλια ρκʹ. Ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ Δανάστρεως ποταμοῦ μέχρι 〈τοῦ〉 ποταμοῦ Δανάπρεώς εἰσιν μίλια πʹ, ὁ χρυσὸς λεγόμενος αἰγιαλός.

Ἀπὸ δὲ τὸ στόμιον ποταμοῦ τοῦ Δανάπρεώς εἰσι τὰ Ἀδαρά, κἀκεῖσε κόλπος ἐστὶν μέγας, ὁ λεγόμενος τὰ Νεκρόπυλα, ἐν ᾧ τις διελθεῖν ἀδυνατεῖ παντελῶς. Καὶ ἀπὸ μὲν τοῦ Δανάπρεως ποταμοῦ μέχρι Χερσῶνός εἰσιν μίλια τʹ, ἐν τῷ μέσον δὲ λίμναι καὶ λιμένες εἰσίν, ἐν οἷς οἱ Χερσωνῖται τὸ ἅλας ἐργάζονται. Ἀπὸ δὲ Χερσῶνος μέχρι Βοσπόρου εἰσὶν τὰ κάστρα τῶν κλιμάτων, τὸ δὲ διάστημα μίλια τʹ. Καὶ ἀπὸ Βοσπόρου τὸ τῆς Μαιώτιδος λίμνης στόμιόν ἐστιν, ἥτις καὶ θάλασσα διὰ τὸ μέγεθος παρὰ πάντων ὀνομάζεται. Εἰς δὲ τὴν αὐτὴν Μαιώτιδα θάλασσαν εἰσρέουσιν ποταμοὶ πολλοὶ καὶ μεγάλοι· πρὸς μὲν τὸ ἀρκτῷον αὐτῆς μέρος ὁ Δάναπρις ποταμός, ἐξ οὗ καὶ οἱ Ῥῶς διέρχονται πρός τε τὴν μαύρην Βουλγαρίαν καὶ Χαζαρίαν καὶ Συρίαν. Ὁ δὲ αὐτὸς κόλπος τῆς Μαιώτιδος ἔρχεται ἀντικρὺ τῶν Νεκροπύλων, τῶν ὄντων πλησίον τοῦ Δανάπρεως ποταμοῦ, ὡς ἀπὸ μιλίων δʹ, καὶ μίσγεται, ἐν ᾧ καὶ σοῦδαν οἱ παλαιοὶ ποιησάμενοι διεβίβασαν τὴν θάλασσαν, μέσον ἀποκλείσαντες πᾶσαν τὴν Χερσῶνος γῆν καὶ τῶν κλιμάτων καὶ τῆς Βοσπόρου γῆν, κρατοῦσαν μέχρι ͵α μιλίων ἢ καὶ πλειόνων τινῶν. Ἐκ δὲ τῶν πολλῶν ἐτῶν κατεχώσθη ἡ αὐτὴ σοῦδα καὶ εἰς δάσος ἐγένετο πολύ, καὶ οὐκ εἰσὶν ἐν αὐτῷ πλὴν δύο ὁδοί, ἐν αἷς οἱ Πατζινακῖται διέρχονται πρός τε Χερσῶνα καὶ Βόσπορον καὶ τὰ κλίματα.

Εἰς δὲ τὸ ἀνατολικώτερον μέρος τῆς Μαιώτιδος λίμνης εἰσέρχονται πολλοί τινες ποταμοί, ὅ τε Τάναϊς ποταμός, ὁ ἀπὸ τὸ κάστρον Σάρκελ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ τὸ Χαράκουλ, ἐν ᾧ καὶ τὸ βερζίτικον ἁλιεύεται, εἰσὶ δὲ καὶ ἕτεροι ποταμοί, ὁ Βὰλ καὶ ὁ Βουρλίκ, ὁ Χαδὴρ καὶ ἄλλοι πλεῖστοι ποταμοί. Ἐκ δὲ τῆς Μαιώτιδος λίμνης ἐξέρχεται στόμιον τὸ Βουρλὶκ ἐπονομαζόμενον, καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ Πόντου θάλασσαν καταρρεῖ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν ἡ Βόσπορος, ἀντικρὺ δὲ τῆς Βοσπόρου τὸ Ταμάταρχα λεγόμενον κάστρον ἐστίν. Τὸ δὲ διάστημα τοῦ περάματος τοῦ τοιούτου στομίου ἐστὶν μίλια ιηʹ. Ἐν δὲ τῷ μέσον τῶν αὐτῶν ιηʹ μιλίων ἐστὶ νησίον μέγα χαμηλόν, τὸ λεγόμενον Ἀτέχ. Ἀπὸ τὸ Ταμάταρχά ἐστι ποταμὸς ἀπὸ μιλίων ιηʹ ἢ καὶ κʹ, λεγόμενος Οὐκρούχ, ὁ διαχωρίζων τὴν Ζιχίαν καὶ τὸ Ταμάταρχα, ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ Οὐκροὺχ μέχρι τοῦ Νικόψεως ποταμοῦ, ἐν ᾧ καὶ κάστρον ἐστὶν ὁμώνυμον τῷ ποταμῷ, ἔστιν ἡ χώρα τῆς Ζιχίας· τὸ δὲ διάστημά ἐστιν μίλια τʹ. Ἄνωθεν δὲ τῆς Ζιχίας ἐστὶν ἡ χώρα ἡ λεγομένη Παπαγία, καὶ ἄνωθεν τῆς Παπαγίας χώρας ἐστὶν ἡ χώρα ἡ λεγομένη Κασαχία, ἄνωθεν δὲ τῆς Κασαχίας ὄρη τὰ Καυκάσιά εἰσιν, καὶ τῶν ὀρέων ἄνωθέν ἐστιν ἡ χώρα τῆς Ἀλανίας. Ἡ δὲ τῆς Ζιχίας παράλιος ἔχει νησία, τὸ μέγα νησὶν καὶ τὰ τρία νησία· ἔνδοθεν δὲ τούτων εἰσὶν καὶ ἕτερα νησία, τὰ καὶ ἐπινεμηθέντα καὶ παρὰ τῶν Ζιχῶν κτισθέντα, τό τε Τουργανὴρχ καὶ τὸ Τζαρβαγάνιν καὶ ἕτερον νησίν, καὶ εἰς τὸν τοῦ Σπαταλοῦ λιμένα ἕτερον νησίν, καὶ εἰς τὰς Πτελέας ἕτερον, ἐν ᾧ ἐν ταῖς τῶν Ἀλανῶν ἐπιδρομαῖς οἱ Ζιχοὶ καταφεύγουσιν. Τὸ δὲ παραθαλάσσιον ἀπὸ τῆς συμπληρώσεως τῆς Ζιχίας, ἤτοι τοῦ Νικόψεως ποταμοῦ, ἐστὶν ἡ τῆς Ἀβασγίας χώρα μέχρι τοῦ κάστρου Σωτηριουπόλεως· εἰσὶ δὲ μίλια τʹ.

[miroki]

Както и този на Теофан. Племената май са 6 + севери.

[AM 6171, AD 678/9] Constantine, 11 th year Mauias, 24 th year George, 2nd year

II In this year Mauias, the Caliph1 of the Saracens, died on the 6th of the month Artemisios, indiction 1.2 He had b e e n military commander 20 years and emir 24 years. His son Izid assumed power.Ila

llln this year,3 too, the tribe of the Bulgars assailed Thrace. It is now necessary to relate the ancient history of the Ounnogoundour Bulgars4 and Kotragoi. On the northern, that is the far side of the Euxine Sea, is the so-called Maeotid Lake into which flows a huge river called Atel,5 which comes down from the Ocean through the land of the Sarmatians. The Atel is joined by the river Tanais, which also rises from the Iberian Gates that are in the mountains of Caucasus. From the confluence of the Tanais and the Atel (it is above the aforementioned Maeotid Lake that the Atel splits off) flows the river called Kouphis6 which discharges into the far end of the Pontic Sea near Nekropela/ by the promontory called Ram's Head.8 From the aforesaid lake is a stretch of sea like a river which joins the Euxine through the land of the Cimmerian Bosphorus,9 in which river are caught the so-called mouzzoulin10 and similar fish. Now on the eastern side of the lake that lies above, in the direction of Phanagouria and of the Jews that live there, march a great many tribes; whereas, starting from the same lake in the direction of the river called Kouphis11 (where the Bulgarian fish called xystozi is caught)12 is the old Great Bulgaria and the so-called Kotragoi, who are of the same stock as the Bulgars. In the days of Constantine, who dwelt in the West, Krobatos,13 the chieftain of the aforesaid Bulgaria and of the Kotragoi, died leaving five sons, on whom he enjoined not to depart under any circumstances from their common life that they might prevail in every way and not be enslaved by another tribe. A short time after his demise, however, his five sons fell out and parted company, each with the host that was subject to him. The eldest son, called Batbaian, observed his father's command and has remained until this day in his ancestral land. His younger brother, called Kotragos, crossed the river Tanais and dwelt opposite his eldest brother. The fourth and fifth went over the river Istros, that is the Danube: the former became subject of the Chagan of the Avars in Avar Pannonia and remained there with his army, whereas the latter reached the Pentapolis, which is near Ravenna, and accepted allegiance to the Christian Empire.14 Coming after them, the third brother, called  Asparouch, crossed the Danapris and Danastris (rivers that are farther north than the Danube)15 and, on reaching the Oglos,16 settled between the former and the latter, since he judged that place to be secure and impregnable on both sides: on the near side it is marshy, while on the far side it is encircled by the rivers. It thus provided ample security from enemies to this tribe that had been weakened by its division. When they had thus divided into five parts and been reduced to a paltry estate, the great nation of the Chazars issued forth from the inner depths of Berzilia,17 that is from the First Sarmatia, and conquered all the country beyond the sea as far as the Sea of Pontos,- and they subjugated the eldest brother Batbaian, chieftain of the First Bulgaria, from whom they exact tribute to this day.18 Now, when the emperor Constantine had been informed that a foul and unclean tribe had settled beyond the Danube at the Oglos and was overrunning and laying waste the environs of the Danube, that is the country that is now in their possession, but was then in Christian hands, he was greatly distressed and ordered all the themata to cross over  to Thrace. He fitted out a fleet and moved against them by land and sea in an attempt to drive them away by force of arms; and he drew up his infantry on the land that faces the so-called Oglos and the Danube, while he anchored his ships by the adjoining shore. When the Bulgars had seen the sudden arrival of this enormous armament, they despaired of their safety and took refuge in the aforementioned fastness, where they made themselves secure. For three or four days they did not dare come out of their fastness, nor did the Romans join battle on account of the marshes that lay before them. Perceiving, therefore, the sluggishness of the Romans, the foul tribe was revived and became bolder. Now the emperor developed an acute case of gout and was constrained to return to Mesembria together with five dromones and his retinue so as to have the use of a bath. He left behind the commanders and the army, whom he ordered to make simulated attacks so as to draw the Bulgars out of their fastness and so engage them in battle if they happened to come out; and if not, to besiege them and keep watch over the defences. But the cavalrymen spread the rumour that the emperor was fleeing and, being seized by fear, they, too, fled, although no one was pursuing them. When the Bulgars saw this, they gave pursuit and put most of them to the sword and wounded many others. They chased them as far as the Danube, which they crossed and came to Varna, as it is called, near Odyssos and the inland territory that is there. They perceived that this place was very secure, being guarded at the rear by the river Danube, in front and on the sides by means of mountain passes and the Pontic Sea. Having, furthermore, subjugated the so-called Seven Tribes of the neighbouring Sklavinian nations,19 they settled the Severeis from the forward mountain pass of Beregaba20 in the direction of the east, and the remaining six tribes, which were tributary to them, in the southern and western regions as far as the land of the Avars. Having thus extended their domains, they grew arrogant and began to attack and capture the forts and villages that belonged to the Roman state. Being under constraint, the emperor made peace with them and agreed to pay them yearly tribute. Thus the Romans were put to shame for their many sins.IIb Both those who lived afar and those who lived near were astonished to hear that he who had subjugated everyone, those in the east and in the west, in the north and in the south, was vanquished by this foul and newly-arisen tribe. But he believed that this had happened to the Christians by God's providence and made peace in the spirit of the Gospels; and until his death he remained undisturbed by all his enemies. His particular concern was to unite God's holy churches which had been everywhere divided from the days of the emperor Herakleios, his great grandfather, and of the heretical Sergius and Pyrros, who had unworthily presided over the see of Constantinople and had taught one will and one energy in our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ. 11 Being anxious to refute their evil beliefs, the same most Christian emperor convened at Constantinople an ecumenical council of 289 bishops. He confirmed the doctrines previously established by the five earlier holy and ecumenical councils and joined in promulgating the pious dogma of the two wills and two energies at this holy and most accurate Sixth ecumenical Council,I lc which was presided by the same most pious emperor Constantine and the pious bishops.21

[miroki]

Ето и картата по горния текст.

 

[D3loFF]

@miroki Това знаеш ли го?:

Dio Chrysostom - Discourses

LacusCurtius • Dio Chrysostom — Discourse 36

I happened to be visiting in Borysthenes⁠ during the summer, for I had sailed there then,⁠ after my exile, with the purpose of making my way, if possible, through Scythia to the Getan country, in order to observe conditions there. Well, one day toward noon I was strolling along the Hypanis. I should explain that, although the city has taken its name from the Borysthenes because of the beauty and the size of that river, the actual position, not only of the present city, but also of its predecessor, is on the bank of the Hypanis, not far above what is called Cape Hippolaüs,⁠ on the opposite shore. This part of the land, near where the two rivers meet, is as sharp and firm as the beak of a ship. But from there on these rivers form a marshy lake down to the sea for a distance of approximately two hundred stades; and the breadth of the two rivers in that district is not less than that. The fact is that most of that stretch consists of shoals, and in fair weather unruffled calm prevails as in a swamp. But on the right there are signs of a river, and sailors inward bound judge its depth by the current.⁠ And this explains why the water does make its way out to sea, because of the strength of the current; but for that it would easily be held in check when the south wind blows strongly dead against it. As for the rest, we have only muddy shore overgrown with reeds and trees. And many of the trees are to be seen even in the midst of the marsh, so as to resemble masts of ships; and at times some who were less familiar with those waters have lost their way, supposing that they were approaching ships. And it is here also that we find the vast number of salt-works from which most of the barbarians buy their salt,⁠ as do also those Greeks and Scythians who occupy the Tauric Chersonese.⁠ The rivers empty into the sea near the Castle of Alector,⁠ which is said to belong to the wife of the Sauromatian⁠ king.

Дион Хрисостом - Беседи (36-та глава)

Случайно бях на гости в Бористен⁠ през лятото, защото бях плавал там тогава,⁠ след изгнанието си, с цел да премина, ако е възможно, през Скития до гетската страна, за да наблюдавам условията там. Е, един ден към обяд се разхождах покрай Хипанис. Трябва да обясня, че въпреки че градът е взел името си от Бористен заради красотата и размера на тази река, действителното местоположение не само на сегашния град, но и на неговия предшественик, е на брега на Хипанис, недалеч над така наречения нос Хиполай⁠, на отсрещния бряг. Тази част от земята, близо до мястото, където двете реки се срещат, е остра и твърда като клюн на кораб. Но оттам нататък тези реки образуват блатисто езеро надолу към морето на разстояние от приблизително двеста стадия; и ширината на двете реки в тази област не е по-малка от това. Факт е, че по-голямата част от този участък се състои от плитчини и при хубаво време цари невъзмутимо спокойствие, подобно на блато. Но отдясно има признаци на река и моряците, плаващи навътре, преценяват дълбочината ѝ по течението.⁠ И това обяснява защо водата наистина си проправя път към морето, поради силата на течението; ако не беше това, тя лесно би била спряна, когато южният вятър духа силно срещу нея. Що се отнася до останалата част, имаме само кален бряг, обрасъл с тръстика и дървета. И много от дърветата могат да се видят дори сред блатото, така че да приличат на мачти на кораби; и понякога някои, които не са били запознати с тези води, са се изгубили, предполагайки, че се приближават към кораби. И именно тук откриваме огромния брой солници, от които повечето варвари купуват солта си,⁠ както и гърците и скитите, които населяват Таврическия Херсонес.⁠ Реките се вливат в морето близо до замъка Алектор,⁠ за който се твърди, че принадлежи на съпругата на савроматския⁠ цар.

 

Редактирано Юни 15 от D3loFF

[miroki]

Преди 7 часа, D3loFF said:

@miroki Това знаеш ли го?:

Dio Chrysostom - Discourses

LacusCurtius • Dio Chrysostom — Discourse 36

 

Принципно съм прочел всичко в LacusCurtius. Вече не всичко помня наизуст. Мислех, че ще пишеш за Белите коне, а то май е за Олбия. Та какво визираш?

По-горната карта е по Теофан обаче. Ако е в тази връзка.

[D3loFF]

Преди 2 часа, miroki said:

Та какво визираш?

Абсолютно нищо, просто интересно сведение за Хипанис от друг автор, което не мисля, че е дискутирано досега.

[miroki]

Преди 3 часа, D3loFF said:

Абсолютно нищо, просто интересно сведение за Хипанис от друг автор, което не мисля, че е дискутирано досега.

И аз не си спомням да сме го дискутирали. Но информацията е подобна като на останалите. И е описан в достатъчна правилност. Изглеждащ както и сега.

[Gabraka]

On 7.10.2024 г. at 20:52, Янков said:

И аз да питам нещо - как разните булгари, вулгари, булги и всякакви други улги, стават на блъгаре? Защо са използвали този термин за себеопределение, а не известното в цял свят булгари или българи?

В праславянски има два звука У - кратък и дълъг. Чуждицата "bulgar" е заета с кратък звук У - "bъlgarъ". В старославянски започва да работи Закона за отворената сричка и се получава "блъгаръ". По-късно старославянският се разчленява на различни диалекти и краткото У, което на кирилица бележим с Ъ, придобива различни звучения. На руски звучи като О и за руснаците ние сме "болгар". На източнобългарски звучи като т.нар. звук "шва".

Единственият славянски език, който е запазил и дълго, и кратко У, е чешкият. Ние пишем и казваме "мълвя", а те пишат и казват "mluvím".

[D3loFF]

А да и преди да съм забравил.

Ето нещо много интересно. Това на картата долу е конфедерацията на ободритите, което е държава състояща се от славяни, саксонци и датчани. Но за разлика от на изток, тук нещата са обърнати и аристокрацията е... да, шок, славянска! 

Съществува от 8 в. натам, но за съжаление победени от Свещената Римска Империя в края на 12 в. и от тогава с намален статут на "дукове".

Редактирано Юни 16 от D3loFF